Monday, January 12, 2009

Some nice admissions

HT: BeggarsAllReformation, James Swan.

I have often stated in the last couple of years that dialoguing with RC Apologists in somewhat superfluous. Why? Because the only one really qualified to speak for Rome is the Magisterium itself. Unless the Magisterium speaks no RC Apologists really is worth listening. It is nice to know that a prominent internet RC Apologist recognizes this fact. This is what he says:

While I can appreciate the desire to set good standards in apologetics, most of what we do on this board is colloquial apolgetics and quite frankly NONE of us is qualified to set any standards in defense of the faith. Only the Magisterium can do that and so far, the hierarchy has viewed the diversity of Catholic lay apologists (with some notable exceptions) with general favor.
Nobody can claim to speak DEFINITIVELY for Catholic orthodoxy except the Pope and the bishops in communion with him. We apologists in the trenches may have our disagreements but we are all working for the same end. We need to respect that and not go attacking each other needlessly. Sometimes one needs to speak out, but this should be done only for grave necessity

So caveat lector to the Evangelical thinking of going back to Mother Church due to the convincing arguments made by an RC Apologist to her. She needs to understand that she may not be getting kosher presentation of RC doctrine.

Past Elder has a nice history view of Church History here.


Sch├╝tz said...

I think, LP, that you are not being quite fair to Catholic apologists - and that your "prminent internet RC apologist" is not quite on the ball either.

"Apologetics" is not the same as "teaching magisterium". The teaching magisterium defines, clarifies and teaches the Church's doctrine. Apologetics is the art of defending that doctrine in various fora, public and private.

It would be foolishness and the worst sort of clericalism for Catholic laity to say "only bishops [ie. the magisterium] can do real apologetics" and to dismiss the rest as "colloquial apolgetics".

Apologetics is not gernally done from the pulpit or the cathedra. It is done from the soapbox, the opinion pages, the podium, and (more and more commonly today) the keyboard. Apologetics is a part of the evangelising mission of the Church, and as such is a valid lay apostolate.

The fact that the Catholic lay apologist is under the teaching authority of the Church is simply to say that what he or she is defending is not his or her own doctrine, but the doctrine of "him who sent me" (John 7:16).

L P Cruz said...


Would you count the diversity of opinions of these apologists not confusing the typical on looker?

What I mean Dave is that these apologists have conflicting interpretations of the teaching defined by the Magisterium.

The RC apologist I reported is Dr. Art Sippo and I think he is trying to resolve the conflicting opinions that are present amongst them.

I do not mean that I do not listen to presentations of RC fides defensors but in the end, I find discussions become defaulted.

Could that not be the case?


Past Elder said...

Thanks for the plug mate! Well, as the greatest theologian of our time, Clint Eastwood, said in his latest canonical work, Gran Torino, "Everybody blames the Lutherans."

L P Cruz said...

It is our fault isn't it? As usual. LOL


Past Elder said...

Looks like I'm going to miss the blogger dinner again this year. Any chance of you going and raising enough hell for you and me both?

L P Cruz said...


Let me see what I can do, I have not been invited but we can fix that by inviting myself (LOL).

Raising hell is what we were born to do (LOL).


Past Elder said...

Hell yes. Everybody blames the Lutherans.

Over at Schuetzie's they talk like your coming goes without saying. Judas in the refectory, they're even joking about the seating arrangements. One wondered if Fraser would sit on your side of the table, and I said since I can't make it he could have my seat which sure as hell would be on your side of the table.

Been under a bit a fire over there lately. Which is fine. The message that you guys didn't find the catholic church and didn't find the Catholic Church either is a bit of a hard sell over there!

L P Cruz said...


Lord willing you make it here soon, it will be fun.

The message that you guys didn't find the catholic church and didn't find the Catholic Church either is a bit of a hard sell over there

I post sometimes at Beggars All Reformation and lately the RCs started quibbling amongst themselves, because one is Post Vat II, the other is Pre Vat II. One says I am anathema, the other says - no you are not. One says the anathemas of Trent do not pertain to Luther but to the teaching which was not understood by Trent in context. Though I for one, find Trent missing the point specially of Canon 12.

So it is hard to take, cause people are returning to their own version of Rome and it is strange, you get what you want from Rome, it simply is a powerful system, you have your cake and eat it too.