Sunday, November 17, 2013

UOJ Huberites do not know why faith justifies.

Over at so called LutherQuest (really HuberQuest, if you asked me), my dear friend and brother in Christ, Mr. Brett Meyer was busy evangelising its  Huberite members. Brett's interaction with these self appointed so called 'orthodox' Lutherans (just like Huber applied the label to himself and called those who disagreed with him as Calvinists) can be found here.

You can see that the Huberites are allergic to the notion of faith causing anything. They are horrified to think that faith in Christ may actually make something happen, like say cause you to be declared righteous in Christ. See the drift I am heading?

In truth, though the BoC signers did not consider faith as meritorious, they did consider it as a cause of Justification under the premise that such a faith came from the HS created through the Means of Grace.

The technical term they used for this is instrumental cause. What the BoC denied faith to was its meritorious cause as if it was inherent to man. They did not deny to faith its instrumental cause. Thus it is of some cause nevertheless.

Pr. Paul Rydecki has a lengthy post on this and you can find it here.

When these Huberites engage Brett, they are like wasps ganging up on him. They often drop names for themselves, with the intent that an outside reader might think they are genuine Lutherans. For example in answering Brett, they start off by claiming "we orthodox Lutherans believe blah blah blah, yada yada yada". You now wonder what "orthodox" means. They think they are when in fact they are devotees of Walther.

Yet, if these people have studied the orthodox Lutherans they claim they have affinity with, they would have showed knowledge as to why faith justifies as the BoC authors said and not malign faith as if each time we mention it, we are promoting faith in faith. So these Huberites are just faking it.

Let them come to this turf, if they have the fortitude to leave the safety of their haven, I dare them and would welcome their dirt and venom.



Brett Meyer said...

Great discussion over on LutherQuest dealing with Universal Objective Justification. They detailed much more about what the doctrine teaches and alot more people are coming to the realization it's not the Gospel they were taught as children. The changes they've made to Luther's Catechism are significant.

They are falsely accusing me of denying the universality of God's Law but that is not how the initial statement was posed. They initially said that the entire world is condemned by God. This is false as those with the Holy Spirit's gracious gift of faith in Christ are not condemned but are, in fact, blessed. Those without faith are condemned. Now they're framing the issue around the Law condemning the whole world and falsely scewering me for denying it. It's a pack of hyenas over there. Their initial statement is false as we saw with David J. Webber, ELS UOJ advocate, "In Christ, as God looks at the world through Christ, all are under divine mercy and are forgiven, and are therefore invited to believe and be saved. But outside of Christ, as God looks at the world apart from Christ, all are under divine wrath and judgment, and are condemned. The same people - namely all people - are under consideration in each case." 6:40AM Extra Nos / Grinding My Axe. UOJ winds up having all believers still under God's wrath and condemnation since they teach God they unbelieving world was under His divine mercy and forgiven before faith it does't change after faith then either. That is what they were saying and what I objected to.

Funny how David Jay Webber is still hiding around corners. Dropped a quip in the discussion but didn't post a full comment until after I excused myself from the engagement. Much like he did when hiding around a corner from me during the Emmaus Conference in Seattle.

Interesting too how they seldom dealt with my argumentation which used the BOC and Scripture when it abolished UOJ's foundational tenets, they just ran to the next accusation or question.

Boisclair admitted that this statement, which I posed as an accurate protrayal of UOJ's teaching, was correct - he just didn't think it was circular to the point of feeding on itself:
“That unless unbelievers believe that God forgave them all sins, including the sin of unbelief, unbelievers will go to Hell for eternity for not believing God forgave them for not believing.”

One new revelation was that UOJ teaches Baptism imparts forgiveness and faith in those who reject it and that Holy Communion imparts forgiveness regardless of the unbelief of the one taking it unworthily. I see why they teach this as it's required to be consistent with the doctrine of UOJ but it is just another blatant contradiction to Scripture. 1 Corinthians 11:29, “For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.”

Regarding faith and their claim that those defending Justification solely by faith in Christ alone - I see why they charge faith in faith. They have to since they deny faith is Christ's righteousness by saying it can only be an empty hand and that the true object of faith is the supposed declaration of absolution God made when Christ paid for the world's sins. Faith in Faith is another way for Satan to disparage Christ's righteousness.

Hopefully even more people will read the discussion and see what UOJ really teaches and how it perverts Scripture.

Christ's richest blessings to you and yours Lito!
Your brother in Christ,

LPC said...

They initially said that the entire world is condemned by God. This is false as those with the Holy Spirit's gracious gift of faith in Christ are not condemned but are, in fact, blessed

Yeah Brett, I saw that. There has to be a new doctrine for them to invent the current Universal Objective Condemnation so that UOJ could stand. Notice what Joe said at Intrepid, he said
"God has wrath for no man / God has wrath for unbelievers"

Now just look at that statement. A little bit of common sense would suggest to him or should have suggested to him that God has wrath for some people. This would have been correct since God has no wrath for those who believe in Christ and thus are in Christ. He has certainly wrath for those who do not have Christ. Romans 8:1.

Also yes I saw their doctrine of baptism. Their doctrine requires no faith on the part of the sinner wherein the Means of Grace is being applied. When one accepts a contradiction, it won't be long until other contradictions are accepted as well.

Thank you for fighting for the faith Brett. May God save, help, protect and defend you and the family, dear brother.


Brett Meyer said...

Anyone who is contending for Christ's chief article against the Huberian fanatics who teach Universal Objective Justification should ask their opponents to explain this BOC declaration:

"Hence they say nothing concerning faith, by which Paul so frequently says that men are justified, because those who are accounted righteous before God do not live in mortal sin."
(Apology of the Augsburg Confession:IV Justification:48)

A direct rejection of UOJ's foundational tenet taught by the ELS, WELS and LCMS doctrinal statements that the whole unbelieving world has been declared righteous and therefore forgiven of all sin: debt canceled.

HuberQuest opponents would not address that statement.

LPC said...

Based on UOJ teaching then, the whole world has been declared righteous even those who are in mortal sin.

It is indeed noticeable how they avoid this section of the BoC.


Joe Krohn said...

"Rom. 5: 6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

You're right, Lito. God has wrath for some people.

Brett Meyer said...

Actually Joe, this verse is the appropriate Word of God that shows that His wrath continues upon all those who do not have faith in Christ.
John 3:36, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

Joe Krohn said...

Brett, neither I nor the folks on LQ have denied that those who live in rejection of the Gospel are condemned. But your insistence on faith (of which we do not deny either) makes it look like Christ only died for believers. This is why you are labelled as a crypto-calvinist. The passage I cited is parallel to John 3:16. God loved the world...not God loved believers.

This is proven (your crypto-calvinism) by the fact that you will deny Romans 5:19 that the two 'many' are not the same many.

"19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

Btw...I left a gem for you from Luther's Large Catechism on LQ regarding Baptism. You are in grave error.

LPC said...


You're right, Lito. God has wrath for some people.

Your denomination is flat wrong therefore in saying that the whole world has already been declared righteous in Christ because as Scripture says the whole is NOT IN Christ.

Further you are indeed like Huber who has not relinquished his Calvinism, because you equate the Atonement (its effect and benefits) as the same event wherein Justification also has already happened to the world.

I was a Calvinist, your teachers know nothing about Calvinism. Like Walther and Huber you all cry wolf.

Christ's death is for the whole world but God's forgiveness/justification is only for believers.

Try dealing with that.

You have to demonstrate that time and again according to your thesis that God has declared the world to be righteous/thus forgiven before they were born, before they could ever have faith.


Joe Krohn said...

"You have to demonstrate that time and again according to your thesis that God has declared the world to be righteous/thus forgiven before they were born, before they could ever have faith."

I'm not going to because this is not the correct delineation of Justification. You are guilty of mixing what is subjective with what is objective, Lito. You need to let go of this thinking.

"Christ's death is for the whole world but God's forgiveness/justification is only for believers.

Try dealing with that."

That is about as far away from Lutheranism as you can get, Lito. Your Calvinist roots are showing big time. A leopard can not change his spots so easy, no?

In contrast; Romans 5:18: "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

Try dealing with that.

LPC said...


You are being funny, no?

You have completely lost control of how language is used. Your arguments make me feel like I am debating with the Jehova's Witnesses. You talk like a cultist.

It is not me who is mixing Atonement with Justification it is you. It is the Huberite who invents a category called objective justification not me. You are to prove the existence of such a concept or doctrine taught in Scripture. Well of course, you will agree with us about faith in your so called subjective justification. That is not my issue with Huberite sophists.

My issue is the existence of an objective justification. The existence of God's justification of people without faith being introduced.

Now with regards to Romans 5:18. Are you trying to say that is the proof of an UOJ?

I point you then to Johann Gerhard's take on Romans 5:18,

Now please, do not even insult the memory of this man by suggesting he was a crypto-Calvinist, or I would have to go to the toilet if I read that from you.


Brett Meyer said...

Joe states, "But your insistence on faith (of which we do not deny either) makes it look like Christ only died for believers."

The bolded section is classic UOJ rationalism. UOJ is based in rational extrapolations of Scripture. It's the same as the UOJ statement, "if God didn't justify the whole unbelieving world then God couldn't justify those who have faith."

Joe's use of Romans 5:18 is a common UOJ attempt to show how God declared the whole unbelieving world righteous. But what they are also teaching is Universalism with thier perversion of Romans 5:18. When they distribute the 'free gift' to the whole unbelieving world they also distribute 'Justification of life' which is salavation.

The other absurdity is that we are condemned for tearing the heart out of the gospel for rejecting Objective Justification by only teaching Subjective Justification. The truth is that we only teach Scriptural Justification which is only objective - it is solely God working through His Means of Grace, Word and Sacrament, throughout the entire doctrine of Justification - Christ's atonement to Christians in Heaven by faith in Christ alone. UOJists are running a scam on every layman in the Lutheran Synods and by the grace of God more laymen are waking up to the travesty in these last days.