Sunday, July 01, 2012

They have the license to go -- beyond Scripture and the Confessions

HT: Ichabod

Here is proof that the Huberite (UOJ) fanatics believe, in their typical antinomian fashion, they have the right to go beyond what Scripture teaches and beyond what the Lutheran Confessions teach...

This the typical double talk one finds in the UOJ Huberite world. First it says "We are not restricted to those doctrines laid down in our confessions". Then it proceeds to explain that the 1577 framers went beyond the Agustana and the Apology. In sophistry, that first sentence is what is called the set-up. It set things up for you to swallow the forthcoming fallacious argument. Meaning if the framers can do it, then you and they can do it too. Thus if they (the Synodics and UOJ teachers) are found doing so, they have the same equal right to do what the framers did. What is not being said is that the framers never went beyond Scripture but in fact, the framers articulated Scripture.

How does this quote relate to the freedom of Huberites (UOJers) to stitch doctrine as they go along. Listen to Daniel Deutschlander's statement from his essay found at Ichabod here
Our Lutheran Confessions have no separate article on Objective Justification; the closest we can come to a paragraph of formulation for this doctrine is in Article IX of the Formula of Concord, under the doctrine of election. But even that is not really sufficient or suitable for stating the orthodox position in a clear and unequivocal manner. For our Fathers it was not difficult at all to consider objective and subjective justification under the same heading, and they were apparently unaware of any need to separate them or distinguish between them. But such was and remained the case only so long as the orthodox had a clear understanding of the nature of faith; once that understanding was gone, it became necessary (at the end of the last century) to begin making such as distinction. (A possible reason for the loss of such an understanding we shall consider below in Part III.) But having said all that, we shall not go wrong in assuming that, had we asked then for it, they would have had little difficulty in making the distinction; indeed, given their clear and concise formulations on faith and its relation to justification, one can only conclude that they considered the distinction all but self-evident. We take note of this silence in the Confessions at this point and on this matter, lest someone charge us with indifference to the problem, or ignorance of its existence, or failure to take it into account

In short, we have a couple of admissions from well respected speakers on behalf of Modern Huberites (UOJ teachers and adherents). We have clear evidence here of a.) mis-representation of what the framers of the BoC did, and b.) a direct admission that they are arguing from silence.


Now, I would like to put out a challenge to the Modern Huberite (UOJer) readers of this blog, I wonder who would be the first of their kind to denounce their fellow UOJer's blatant admissions - the admissions of Rev. Wayne Mueller or Prof. Daniel Deutschlander?  


20 comments:

Pastor emeritus Nathan Bickel said...

LPC -

I'm sorry, but, I don't think that you will get any takers with what you are asking [unless "LutherRocks" takes a stab at it]. The universal objective justification teaching appears to be so entrenched that (I believe) it's their natural ebb and flow. This Sunday's morning worship service was just another example for me:

To my disappointment and continued frustration, I heard more universalism proclaimed from our local WELS (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod) pulpit. Our (10 years out of the seminary) young pastor was still on vacation, so our local Bethel congregation had a fill-in Sunday preacher. He was [is] the (recent and brief) former Saginaw MLS - Michigan Lutheran Seminary president, Rev. Aaron Frey.

Unless I dozed off during the sermon (and I think not, as the Rev. Frey has a boisterous voice at times; then a quieter one with pauses, at other times) - I again heard the nasty UOJ - universal objective justification creep into his sermon about the Gospel of Mark's account of Jesus calming the sea storm - Mark 4:35-41.

Part and parcel of the former MLS president's emphasis was, "Who starts the storm?" He readily discounted (a) nature; (b) the devil but, credited it to God the Father.

He then went on to ask and answer the question: "If God allows storms [in the life of the Christian] - what is His purpose?

Furthermore Rev. Frey went on to distinguish between "saving faith" and the Christian's "measurement of faith," mentioning that the faith that Jesus was talking about to His disciples (in the boat) was that (everyday type) trust faith - that "measurement of faith."

In the process, Rev. Frey stated [Paraphrase] - "that God goes to any length to remove your obstacles to saving faith."

He went on a little while after that, to assert how God looks upon us - [Paraphrase] - "You are forgiven; you are my son, my daughter - nothing in all creation can change that. No cause to concern; no worry; the Lord will bring you home to heaven." [Paraphrase]

Consequently, [then] am I to suppose that the Apostle Paul was just blowing hot air when he penned the Scripture (under the Holy Spirit's pointed inspirational direction)? - 2 Timothy 4:7 - "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith."

And, if the Apostle Paul was just blowing hot air, it would be a lot less struggle if I and all Christians were to believe what the Rev. Aaron Frey related to the congregation this morning. Then we wouldn't have to struggle and fight the good fight of faith like the [apparent] disillusioned Apostle Paul. We could all then just attend Sunday morning worship; pray the confessional prayer, get absolved and cap it off with Holy Communion. [Oh yes - no mention in the sermon of the Holy Spirit - His work of creating and sustaining personal faith and belief]

Finally, again, I am disappointed in what WELS has been apparently seeding in their present and future parish pastors! In this case (with Rev. Frey), this was the man who was called to preside over a WELS high school and prep school for future parochial school teachers and parish pastors. In another posting to Ichabod I've illustrated (from WELS own educational materials) how the elementary children are being UOJ conditioned, and more recently a Vacation Bible School where personal faith, belief and the working of the Holy Spirit were scratched (eliminated).

LPC - Please continue to highlight (on your site) this major teaching and preaching heresy of "universal objective justification." This departure from Scripture is truly alarming and very defining! As the Ichabod website stated in a recent posting, this false teaching is one of three major common error marks of those who depart from the divine revelation.

Nathan M. Bickel - Bay City, Michigan

www.thechristianmessage.org

www.moralmatters.org

LPC said...

Nathan,
that God goes to any length to remove your obstacles to saving faith

Now in the world did he mean by that?

Notice how everyone is a son or daughter by God without any difference. Yet Jesus said some are children of the devil. When you become a Huberite, you will have a skewed understanding of Scripture.

LPC

Pastor emeritus Nathan Bickel said...

LPC -

I don't know exactly what Frey meant by that. This is not the first time he has been guest preacher at Bethel congregation. I've heard him before and it seems that he will put something out there, not fully elaborating on it and then move on to another thought. [He won't put you to sleep, but help to make your listening experience more needlessly involved]

My posting was not to analyze his preaching style (although in one part I described part of it), but to faithfully [if I might utilize that word, as it starts with "faith"] describe what he said. And, I am convinced that this is part and parcel of how the Rev. Frey conceives the erroneous universal objective justification teaching which many, believe have negatively permeated Christian and also Lutheran churches. [I am one of them]

As to Frey's "son and daughter metaphor," and your subsequent comment, - I agree. I can only think how the fallen and sinful culture mistakenly call the human race, God's family - that "we are all God's children."

In short, I think it pathetic how Christian churches and their leaders allow the culture to creep into their teaching; and, hence, they then utilize the same basic terminology giving it a "holy" twist.

Nathan M. Bickel

www.thechristianmessage.org

www.moralmatters.org

Pastor emeritus Nathan Bickel said...

The universal objective justification diehards will pervert the grace of God. They have a big problem dealing with Ephesians 2:8-9. Part and parcel of their perversion is to accuse others of limiting the Atonement of Christ when they themselves limit the grace of God by not connecting His grace with the Holy Spirit's actions of creating and sustaining faith.

Instead, they desire a cheap grace that is all packaged up in the once for all sacrifice of Christ. They can't see God's grace in the Holy Spirit's action of bringing the soul to faith. [Titus 3:5 ; John 3:3-8 ; 1 Cor. 6:11]

These universalism enthusiasts don't want to admit that the Holy Spirit creates faith in whom He may. To them that is at odds with their brand of universalism teaching and preaching of forgiveness for all without being born from above by the Holy Spirit. [John 3:3-8]

When is the last time you talked with an objective justification universalist and heard him credit the Holy Spirit for His full work? It won’t happen, because they only ascribe grace with Christ and none to the Holy Spirit and His gracious work.

I further think that while universal objective justification enthusiasts falsely accuse their opponents of limiting the Atonement, they, at the same time don't want to admit that the Holy Spirit (working with the Word) would create faith in whom He may. They can't stand the thought of some souls not coming into their come one / come all, universalist heaven. By so doing so, these universalists deny the reality of God's free moral agency gift, which is exercised by human souls to their own (soul's) eternal destruction.

Nathan M. Bickel - Bay City, MI

www.thechristianmessage.org

www.moralmatters.org

Gregory L. Jackson said...

We are looking into the catechism changes in WELS, the Gausewitz. I hope to get to one post today. I also have some good justification quotations from Luther's Galatians lectures, which are more developed than the shorter commentary. I found the volume while gathering Luther books for an avid reader on the Left Coast.

LPC said...

Looking forward to it.

LPC

LutherRocks said...

"I'm sorry, but, I don't think that you will get any takers with what you are asking [unless "LutherRocks" takes a stab at it]."

I'll let the Confessions take a stab at it...the part Prof. Daniel Deutschlander is referring to...from the Formula under Election:

"15] 1. That the human race is truly redeemed and reconciled with God through Christ, who, by His faultless [innocency] obedience, suffering, and death, has merited for us the righteousness which avails before God, and eternal life."

So 'what does this mean?'

If you guys would give a sincere and honest 'objective' treatment of this, you would realize how ridiculous your argument is as I have realized by dwelling in your rabbit hole with you.

All are forgiven; some are forgiven. God's will is for all to be saved. All have forgiveness in Christ. Those that reject do not have the gift of forgiveness...but it is is there just the same.

LutherRocks said...

Here is the excerpt in context from the Formula:

"15] 1. That the human race is truly redeemed and reconciled with God through Christ, who, by His faultless [innocency] obedience, suffering, and death, has merited for us the righteousness which avails before God, and eternal life.

16] 2. That such merit and benefits of Christ shall be presented, offered, and distributed to us through His Word and Sacraments.

17] 3. That by His Holy Ghost, through the Word, when it is preached, heard, and pondered, He will be efficacious and active in us, convert hearts to true repentance, and preserve them in the true faith.

18] 4. That He will justify all those who in true repentance receive Christ by a true faith, and will receive them into grace, the adoption of sons, and the inheritance of eternal life.

19] 5. That He will also sanctify in love those who are thus justified, as St. Paul says, Eph. 1:4.

20] 6. That He also will protect them in their great weakness against the devil, the world, and the flesh, and rule and lead them in His ways, raise them again [place His hand beneath them], when they stumble, comfort them under the cross and in temptation, and preserve them [for life eternal].

21] 7. That He will also strengthen, increase, and support to the end the good work which He has begun in them, if they adhere to God's Word, pray diligently, abide in God's goodness [grace], and faithfully use the gifts received.

22] 8. That finally He will eternally save and glorify in life eternal those whom He has elected, called, and justified."

It is all outside of us and worked in us by the Holy Ghost. Justification is objective...all the time...and becomes ours through faith.

LPC said...

Joe,

All are forgiven; some are forgiven. God's will is for all to be saved. All have forgiveness in Christ. Those that reject do not have the gift of forgiveness...but it is is there just the same.

I highlight to you your sophistry. If all are forgiven which you assert, it can not be that some are forgiven only. It is like saying all human beings are mortals. And in the same breath say, some human beings are mortals. That means some human beings are not mortals.

Kindly study what is a fallacy first. Then you will read the BoC without sunglasses.

Stop making statements that make you sound funny. I get embarrassed (for your) by your swift statements

LPC

city said...

thanks for sharing.

LutherRocks said...

It is not sophistry on my part, but maybe semantics on yours...

All humans are mortals. And, yes, some are mortals since they reject Jesus Christ and the free forgiveness He offers all men...they relish in their sins. The rest are not mortals, since they have received Jesus Christ and His merits through the gift of faith.

You forgot a period in your post...and who is swift? :)

LPC said...

Sophistry is exactly that, the improper use of the meaning of words.

Take a look again on what you just said which has led you to absurdity and this is symptomatic of UOJ.

You said The rest are not mortals, since they have received Jesus Christ and His merits through the gift of faith

When did the Bible say that when a person who is a mortal being stops or is no longer a mortal being when the person receives Jesus Christ and His merits through the gift of faith?

Further in your mind, you said "All humans are mortals" Then you say "Some are mortals".

This is silly and warped nonsense. If all humans are mortals you can not say some of them are mortals implying that some of them are not. It can not be that all humans are mortals and yet some of them are not.

This is a contradiction, a fallacy. Either all humans are mortals or Some of them are mortals, it can not be both.

Do you really want for the whole world of the Internet examine the statement you just made?

LPC

Gregory L. Jackson said...

One insightful woman said to me, "This UOJ is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. They leave the Holy Spirit and the Word out of justification. They never come to grips with the Means of Grace."

I have yet to see a UOJ advocate do more than mention the Means of Grace, which Fuerbringer and the other LCMS editors called "the peculiar glory of the Lutheran Church."

LutherRocks said...

Lito... I was using your allegory as a metaphor.

In reality all men are immortal. They will live in eternity in one of two ways. Either they will receive what God wills for them, or they will refuse it. God made man's salvation His responsibility...so it can never be construed that it was His fault for a man's condemnation...that rests on man.

LPC said...

I was using your allegory as a metaphor.
What metaphor have I been using?
I completely void of that sense as I interchange with you in the recent comments.

I have no idea of what you are trying to drive at.

All of the syllogisms in your statements are yours, not mine.

It is you who is making the statements so don't pin your sophistry on me.

However, the conversation does prove Hunnius' point - Huberites are self contradictory.

LPC

LutherRocks said...

"In reality all men are immortal. They will live in eternity in one of two ways. Either they will receive what God wills for them, or they will refuse it. God made man's salvation His responsibility...so it can never be construed that it was His fault for a man's condemnation...that rests on man."

How does this statement make me a 'Huberite' and/or self contradictory? Did not God create man to live forever?

LPC said...

Joe,

It is not in that statement but in the idea that I was using some sort of analogy or metaphor. That you just made makes you first a Calvinist since Calvinists believe in soul immortality. Now that is not surprising because Huber was a Calvinist too and have never shed off his Calvinistic paradigm, even though he joined the Lutherans.

Here is what wikipedia says about your statement...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immortality#Christianity
Contrary to common belief, there is no biblical support of "soul immortality" as such in the New Testament, see Soul in the Bible. The theme in the Bible is "resurrection life" which imparts immortality, not about "soul" remaining after death. Luther and others rejected Calvin's idea of "soul immortality"

I am interested in seing how you will wiggle your way out of this one. I have just proven you to be a Calvinists.

UOJers like you are not aware of their own Calvinism it has to be pointed out to them from the outside. If you continue to listen to your UOJ luminaries they will continue to burn your soul.



LPC

LutherRocks said...

You are grasping at straws...

The soul is immortal in the sense that it lives forever, Lito. People will either enjoy an eternal sabbath or experience an eternal death.

LPC said...

Joe,

Let your words and the words of my quote speak to where you really are.

The issue is your sophistic use of the word "immortal" and the phrase "lives forever".

You keep missing the point or just simply put, you ignore the point.

LPC

LutherRocks said...

Really. Then define "immortal".