Wednesday, July 28, 2010

Needing philanthropic help

My research paper got accepted in an international conference to be held this October 2010 in Valencia, Spain. The conference is about Knowledge Engineering and about Ontologies in computer science. Unfortunately since I am now out of my university, there is no travel money for me. Besides, my faculty is hard up with cash. Having only 1.5 days of work does not help me much so I am looking for some generous patron who might support and give me a travel grant. I have a handful of philanthropic groups to approach but I need more, so should you have some ideas, I would be grateful if you pass them on to me.

Lastly, I am surprised that the book Concordia The Lutheran Confessions: A readers edition of the BoC released by CPH has been challenged and LC-MS is revoking its doctrinal review certificate. I am not sure what this means. Does it mean we can get our money back? I got my worn out Tappert version, this red BoC has served me well.
[update]
I read it first at Ichabod and the LC-MS article is found here. Apparently this is not news anymore. However this is news to me because when I got mine from a stockist in 2008, they still sent me the 2005 edition that did not contain the corrections.

BTW, if you know of some philanthropists, I would appreciate your letting me know of them. We do not have a lot here.

72 comments:

Partizan said...

The news on Concordia: the readers edition isn't really news. The LC-MS article was published in 2006 and CPH has since published a 2nd edition that made the necessary corrections and even referenced the LC-MS' decision in the new forward.

I think Ichabod's intent was to paint a blot on McCain rather than report a news story.

Paul McCain said...

Mr. Jackson is a sad and pathetic character. I believe he suffers from some serious emotional conditions about which we can only but feel a lot of pity.

I've learned over the years that personalities like Mr. Jackson thrive on attention, and so desperate and hungry for it that they will do anything they possibly can to be noticed, recognized and given the kind of respect they think they deserve.

Mr. Jackson has moved from Lutheran church to Lutheran church, bouncing from one to another and another and then yet another.

He is now reduced to a fake house/bedroom church and feels a need to lash out and any all real/imagined errors.

His anger and bittnerness oozes out of his every post.

The only thing to do with people like Mr. Jackson is forgive them, and commend them to God's grace and then simply ignore them.

By the way, at its latest convention The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod specifically named and commended "Concordia :The Lutheran Confessions" and recommended it be the edition of the Lutheran Confessions read and studied by the congregations and members of the Synod.

Brett Meyer said...

Rev. McCain, you recommend ignoring people like Pastor Jackson as you characterize him but yet you don't do it yourself.

I take issue with your false claim that Bethany Lutheran is not a church, that those who have called Pastor Jackson to be their Public Minister of the Word are not able to have done so and neither was it effective.


Also, what is the error in lashing out, exposing, real errors? To condemn such appropriate actions to the benefit of anyone who will listen and apply the Word and Confessions is to expose yourself. For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

LPC said...

Partizan,

I just got mine about last few years around 2008.

I am looking at it right now as I type.

This edition does not have the corrections you mentioned. So I think these 2005 editions are still hanging around the warehouse and could be mistakenly shipped.

LPC

LPC said...

Partizan,

I now recall that I might have gotten my version from another synod who got theirs and stock theirs from CPH.

Obviously they did not know this information and they sent me their stocked 2005 edition.

I will try and inform them.

LPC

LPC said...

Paul,

Aren't you lucky I do not moderate my blog.

LPC

Brett Meyer said...

Paul McCain writes, "Mr. Jackson is a sad and pathetic character"

"I believe he suffers from some serious emotional conditions"

"He is now reduced to a fake house/bedroom church"


Rev. McCain then states,
"His anger and bittnerness oozes out of his every post."

You don't say...

LPC said...

Brett,

If I try to write something like that about one of his buddies, do you think he will publish it?

Not a chance.

LPC

Gregory L. Jackson said...

If McCain continues to blog all over the Internet, people may wonder:
1. Does he do anything besides produce lousy BOC editions?
2. Does he have a macro key, alt-F8, so he can say the same thing, almost verbatim, no matter what the topic?

Paul has become a Johnny One-Note.

Oh, that must have been thrilling, as a young MDiv, to work secretly with Herman Otten, and to be so richly rewarded for lying about it.

LPC - thanks for the chuckle tonight. Paul needs to open one of his ESVs or whatever he is promoting. "Wherever two or three are gathered in My Name."

McCain is also one of the worst UOJ Stormtroopers. What did I say about them being rude and Antinomian? The evidence is right here.

LPC said...

Rev. McCain,

The proper response to Pr. Greg's post in this blog is to admit that your first cut of the book indeed had problems with, then state that it has been corrected now and new shipments no longer have those objectionable portions.

That would have been more inline with integrity for a man of your stature.

I should say so.

LPC

Dr. Jack Kilcrease said...
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Dr. Jack Kilcrease said...
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LPC said...

Jack,

I pray you never get to the ministry, you are spewing plenty of false doctrine already with your sophistic rants.

Just look at your comment it is again the fallacy of special pleading.

LPC

Dr. Jack Kilcrease said...
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LPC said...

Jack,

It is Christ who calls people to the ministry and God's people simply recognizes that and calls the person to be their pastor because they recognize that to be so in God's eyes. There are people who are being pastored by Dr. Jackson which you keep on denying.

That is why you are doing special pleading for McCain.

I am not LC-MS and for your information how the LC-MS view the call to the ministry is not my concern. I'll just have you and the WELS duke it out.

I am more concerned with the fundamental doctrine of Christianity which is Justification which you and McCain as a UOJer got it in error. So first things first. Thank God though that not everyone is buying UOJ and now laymen are realizing the inaccuracies of that doctrine.

BTW, I am finding it amusing that you should come around here to come to Rev. McCain's aid. You both come from the same mutual admiration society, I am aware of that. I hold no animus (to quote Calvin but not endorse him) towards McCain. I can respect a man I disagree with. He just needs to be a good sport if he is going to conduct himself here.

This is not the blog for onion skinned people.

LPC

Brett Meyer said...

I whole heartedly agree with and recommend the reading of Martin Luther's On Gender and the Ministry

http://www.angelfire.com/ny4/djw/lutherantheology.gender.html

It rejects the false doctrine and practices of (W)ELS and the LCMS. Although some may or may not be universally practiced within each synod at this time they are certainly condoned and allowed.

Dr. Jack Kilcrease said...
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LPC said...

Jack,

You still don't see the special pleading? You excuse McCain but you do not excuse Jackson.

If you say that the call never goes away, then what is true for McCain will be true for Jackson at any rate.
On the other hand... if you argue that the call to be valid there must be a congregation, then Dr. Jackson does qualify for that. You have not watch most of his video wherein he is giving communion to people, physically. I have.

The question for you is, how many physically present people should there be for a congregation to be a valid congregation and hence a valid call?


There are at least 2 people gathered together in Jesus name at Pr. Jackson's services. Brett goes there, and the organist not to mention some family members.

We go to Mt 18:20.

That being the case for Jackson, now how is it going to be true for McCain? Does McCain have at least 2 people gathered for him to serve, physically? Where are these people?

LPC

Gregory L. Jackson said...

If blogging is a divine call, then LPC is Rev. LPC.

I read ALPB Forum, which McCain denounced as no good, not too long ago.

http://cyberbrethren.com/2008/12/23/warning-the-alpb-internet-forum-may-be-hazardous-to-your-mental-and-spiritual-health/

He also denounced LutherQuest (sic) but he posts there too.

He is on ALPB once again, rude to a number of people, including Marie Meyer. I guess he quit before because the forum participants called him on his double-talk.

I do not take McCain's remarks personally. If I can help his mental health, which he was worried about (see his own post, linked above) then I am happy.

LPC said...

Pr. Greg,

Is it an American trait to take one's self seriously? It does not seem that way amongst Australians.

For example, in the congregation I attend, we have retired pastor (of German ancestry) with some 50 years in ministry. We tried to call him pastor but he insisted to call him by just his first name.

He got tired I suppose of correcting us because people insisted in calling him pastor. The point is that he was just happy to be just Mr. Joe Bloke; yet out of respect and recognition for his service, our people was just happy to still call him pastor.

Romans 12:3
[ Serve God with Spiritual Gifts ] For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

LPC

Gregory L. Jackson said...
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Dr. Jack Kilcrease said...
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Gregory L. Jackson said...

LPC, I ask my adult students to call me Greg, but that bothers some, so I suggest "Your Excellency, First Deputy of the Universe." They love that. Most of the instructors are ultra-serious. That may more of an American trait.

I love to joke around, so it is really fun when someone blows up at a rather obvious use of hyperbole on my blog.

Some of the more pompous comments on my blog involve the funny pictures (they hate them) and my efforts to address false doctrine (meltdown).

If they can prove I am a bad guy, that means their synod is indeed Holy Mother Church. Their logic proves they are not Lutheran, not Biblical. It would be funny if it were not a tragedy.

I had to repost this because I saw a typo.

Dr. Jack Kilcrease said...
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Gregory L. Jackson said...

Poor Jack, your reading comprehension is as weak as your character.

Dr. Jack Kilcrease said...
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Brett Meyer said...

Jack Kilcrease, I and my family asked Pastor Greg Jackson to publicly administer the Word and Sacraments to us. When I first met Pastor Jackson personally, Bethany Lutheran Church was gathering together for divine services via a conference call as the members were distributed across the United States. Pastor Jackson and I worked out a way to establish the live video services that are currently being used. The video services are not more or less a valid gathering of Christ's church than the conference calls but are simply an improvement on the visual aspect.

For anyone to diminish and reject the gathering of these families around God's Word and Sacraments, served by a man that they have called to do for them publicly that they have the right in Christ to do privately is to attack Christ Himself. McCain has done this repeatedly and as such should be exposed for the abuse he heaps on Christ's Church.

I commend Martin Luther's essay on Gender and the Ministry. Since no one is to take the Office of the Public Ministry for themselves but are to be called into it via the local congregation (where two or three are gathered in My name) it is only those who have a call by the local congregation to publicly teach the pure Word and rightly administer the Sacraments who are in the Public Ministry of the Word. Those who do not have such a call are not in the Public Ministry of the Word. Luther confessed this as I do. Rev. McCain is in the Public Ministry of the Word when a congregation calls him to serve. If this only occurs for one Sunday it is valid for that Sunday. The rest of the time he is as all who don't have a call are. Those congregations who call Rev. McCain have the ability to call any man who meets Christ's requirements to serve in that capacity as they will since they are of the Priesthood of all Believers. They could call Lito, for instance, and Lito would for the period of the call be in the Office of Public Ministry.

An additional note: In Luther's Gender and the Ministry he cleary articulates that there is only one Ministry and not many. Thus (W)ELS false view of many ministries and their human dictatorial command that they of their own accord can create additional Divine Ministries having less that what Christ gave the one Ministry is rejected.

Dr. Jack Kilcrease said...
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Brett Meyer said...

Jack, apology accepted. I parry and thrust with the Word of God and cast it as the Sower did. It is God alone who calls, gathers and enlightens, I forgive you. Setting aside my sinful flesh' inclination to offence, I'm not harmed by words and wasn't offended.

There was a Texan commenting on this blog who held to your first point. You've moved from Greg Jackson not having a divine call to the Office of the Ministry through a divine call to making points that a congregation can't be formed because X, Y and Z. Not mentioning the other families that attend Pastor Jackson's services over the internet, my family of 6 individuals are a congregation unto ourselves. Whether or not you agree that the many families from across the United States which have coordinated efforts to establish these internet services are a united congregation you cannot justify a statement that in and of themselves (2 or three) they are a local congregation unto themselves. You contention that Pastor Jackson is unable to baptize over the internet is groundless. Yes he's unable to publicly apply the water to baptize my child from Arkansas but I as a believer in Christ can baptize my child from where I stand in Washington. Your more henious contention is that one cannot administer Holy Communion via the internet. What part is missing from Holy Communion where the internet prohibits is right application? I set the visible elements for divine service. Pastor Jackson speaks Christ's Words of institution and I distribute it to myself and family. To contend that Christ's Words are not effective because the one speaking them is not physically present is many things and simply wrong.

I didn't say that ordination evaporates, and as such I refer to Paul McCain as Rev. McCain. But when his call to publicly administer the Word and Sacraments by a body of believers is absent so is his presence in the Public Ministry of the Word. To say that someone never leaves the Public Ministry of the Word (PMW) even though they no longer have a call is to negate the need for the congregation to call someone into the Ministry in the first place. You're wrong about Luther and his essay that I suggested covers this.

I agree that teaching false doctrine is a disqualification for ministry. I disagree that Pastor Jackson teaches falsely concerning Justification. He teaches and confesses it as Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions declare and defend. Your argumentation on this has been rationalistic and applied sophistry. Your spelling and sentence structure is improving though. Parry... thrust, parry … thrust…

By the grace of God, forever in Christ,
Brett Meyer

LPC said...

Jack,

You said I'm distinguishing between two things 1. the validity of the office of ministry (which I agree Jackson possesses) 2. A valid call to exercise ministry- which I don't believe Jackson has.

This is where your special pleading comes from, for how did 1 came about in the first place ever if 2 did not happen?

If I were you I would also stop the psycho-analysis of Dr. Jackson.

It is irrelevant to the topic of this post - which is the first cut of the BoC headed by McCain was a dud version.

LPC

Brett Meyer said...

Lito, I just read through the LCMS Commission on Doctrinal Review found here http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/Doctrinal%20Review/Concordia%20decision.pdf

Seems to explain the motivation behind Rev. McCain going all Jack Torrance in "The Shining" in the above post. The LCMS Commission's statements and determinations are extremely serious and a full accounting by CPH and those responsible should have been demanded. Recommend everyone read the decision which includes the challenges and statements.

LCMS seems to go all limp over the Justification issue though:
14. In the introduction to AC IV, the editor presents a "purely forensic doctrine of justification" which is an inaccurate reduction of the true doctrine presented in AC IV and the relevant article of the Apology (=Ap). The challenger is perhaps reacting to a so-called "forensic" reduction of the gospel to a "legal fiction," but that is not the only or proper understanding of "forensic" justification, which (properly understood) is clearly the Lutheran position. This challenge does not have any merit.

"properly understood" - can anyone count the damage that condoning excuse has wrought?

Calling it a "dud" was a gracious gesture on your part Lito. You are too kind.

Dr. Jack Kilcrease said...
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Dr. Jack Kilcrease said...
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Brett Meyer said...

Jack, you state, " Since Christ was physically present and administering the elements himself, I would contend that we should do communion on the basis of Christ's institution."

What does the physical presence of the Pastor add or detract from the Words purely and rightly spoken and elements rightly distributed?

What does the physical presence of the Pastor add or detract from Christ's presence when two or three are gathered in His name?

I agree that Christ was physically present during His institution of Holy Communion - do you reject that Christ is present, both with a Pastor who is conducting a divine service based on the Lutheran liturgy and with the believers gathered to listen and participate in that service whether they be together or communicating from a distance? I contend that Christ is present when my family gathers for the divine service in my home as well as with Pastor Jackson as he conducts the service in his home with his family attending. Certainly you are not attempting to say that it is the man who has been called to publicly administer the Sacraments that needs to be present rather than solely Christ Himself? I believe your arguement falls further apart the more it's discussed.

Brett Meyer said...

Jack, in your follow-up you state, Namely, one must be present with the elements speaking the promises to the individual whom you give the elements to.

In light of the Biblical account of Christ and the centurion I disagree.

LutherRocks said...

I dare say, Dr. Kilcrease, that you re-define being one in spirit by your contention that we must be physically present.

Peace,
Joe

Gregory L. Jackson said...

Calvin would agree with Father Jack, OP.

Gregory L. Jackson said...

ptmccain
ALPB Contribution Leader

Posts: 601
Quote from: Richard Johnson on July 26, 2010, 08:42:41 PM

Editor McCain,

Quote from: Richard Johnson on July 26, 2010, 08:42:41 PM

Editor McCain,

Some of us here appreciate and wish to continue to hear Pr. Austin's reflections on the LWF assembly. This is your last chance. Here's the deal: I am asking you to STOP commenting on any of the threads related to the LWF. If you fail to do so, I will suspend your membership on the forum until after the LWF assembly is over. Are we clear?

Source - ALPB Online Forum

Steven Goodrich said...

I commend Martin Luther's essay on Gender and the Ministry

In the interest of full disclosure, this piece was not written by Luther but is a collection of quotes from Luther. It is still worth the read.

Dr. Jack Kilcrease said...
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Dr. Jack Kilcrease said...
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Dr. Jack Kilcrease said...
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Dr. Jack Kilcrease said...
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Brett Meyer said...

My point is this: We have to do things in accordance with the institution of Christ. Christ instituted the eucharist to celebrated by people who were in physical with one another.

Agreed, rightly distributing the Sacrament is paramount. I disagree that the Sacrament is not rightly distributed by Bethany Lutheran Church, by the families that participate and by Pastor Jackson. Christ instituted the Sacrament of Holy Communion for the forgiveness of sins and in remembrance of Him by the priesthood of Christian believers. You inclusion of the requirement that Christ commands that those participating must be in physical contact with one another is groundless and legalistic. Christ's Words of institution are rightly said and each family ensures to their best intent and ability that those recieving Christ's body and blood are able to do so. Regardless of your objections to the contrary your arguement is an offense to the efficacy of Christ's Word.

I really don't see why one would not do this either,

There are no Orthodox Lutheran churches in Washington or Oregon which abide by the Lutheran Confessions in regard to the doctrine of Justification by faith alone (in addition to other Lutheran doctrines depending on the church). The ELS stood by and watched their Synod president expose himself as an antichrist when he, by his own will and reason, removed a Pastor from his congregation. WELS watched in approval. Pastor Jackson is an Orthodox Lutheran Minister of Christ's Word and by the grace of God we remain thankful for finding him in the morass of apostacy that has been ushered into the Lutheran churches.

unless your committed to the idea that Jackson is the last orthodox Lutheran on earth and you absolutely need him as your pastor

Pastor Jackson is not the last Orthodox Lutheran Pastor but he is the only one I could find. I led my family in our own reading of Luther's sermons and prayer for many Sundays prior to discussions with Pastor Jackson and the service arrangments that were forthcoming. I have no problem with either but when an opportunity to gather with other Orthodox Lutheran Christians presented itself I certainly prefer to do so.

I mean, I still wouldn't accept your practice even if that was true. The point is that you wouldn't get involved in these intellectual gymnastics unless you assumed that Jackson was the last orthodox Lutheran minister on earth.

I am certain that on these issues it is Jack Kilcrease who is involved in intellectual gymnastics. I confess the efficacy of Christ's Words spoken softly into my ear from the lips of another Christian or reverberating from the speakers of my computer through an internet connection with a faithful pastor thousands of miles away.

Being physically present with a minister isn't much of a requirement either, since you go virtually anywhere in the US and find an orthodox Lutheran church to commune at.

It appears that this physical requirement of yours differentiates a valid Sacrament from an invalid one - that makes it a really big requirment. I disagree and personally confess it's excrusiatingly difficult to find and Orthodox Lutheran Church in the United States or around the World. Again since you only seem willing to view Scripture and the Confessions as a bundle of conceptualities and not the clearest articulation of God's specific Word, othodox must have a different meaning for you than for me.

Brett Meyer said...
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Dr. Jack Kilcrease said...
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LPC said...

Jack,

I think we need to distinguish between the office of ministry and the call to exercise ministry in a particular setting. This is my response to LPC

Why? What is the Scriptural warrant for this? I am not interested in speculation. If you can show the necessity of this from Scripture then let me see what you offer as precedent.

LPC

Dr. Jack Kilcrease said...
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Gregory L. Jackson said...

Silence. Jack is speaking ex cathedra!

LPC said...

Jack,

The problem with so called logical implication is that it can be supported with any train of reasoning which is not necessarily of sound use.

Scripture is prima facie Jack, ever heard of that principle?

Calvinists have the same principle as yours too, it is found in WCF so much so as an example, that one can deduce that the electing process of God by decree is Supralapsarian.

Prima facie evidence is the direct quote. For example, stealing is wrong. This is not a result of reasoning from Scripture, we have a direct command from God not to do this.

You cannot absolve McCain without absolving Jackson. For if you say that Pr. Jackson has no right to exercise ministry at a particular setting what is the warrant for McCain's setting that is not applicable to Jackson? We do not have Jesus standing and commanding us not to go there or go here, we have Mt 28:20. In saying 'settings' etc. you go beyond Scripture to establish rules for doing this or that. Since you do not have actual precedence that applies to Jackson.

All you have to do is establish that you have direct knowledge that Jesus does not want Jackson to operate or do what he is doing now.

1. I do not think you have that warrant

2. If you claim you do, I claim on the other hand you are an enthusiast.

Because of your theological method which is similar to Romanism, I can see why Jackson was withing reason to assert you are a crypto-Romanist.

LPC

Dr. Jack Kilcrease said...
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Gregory L. Jackson said...

Father Jack, you are terminally dumb, but you provide great entertainment. Keep posting. I have some popcorn heating up.

LPC said...

Kilcrease,

Thanks for the summary - that is much better. You have some conceding in that last paragraph. In my view McCain, since he subscribes to UOJ like you, is the false teacher because UOJ is not taught in Scripture nor in the BoC.

Seriously, you miss my point on prima facie? Do the fans know about this? You can at least Wiki the term, goodness, it is in the internet.

If you want logicism in theology, you can not out do a Calvinist. I was once one.

I am so amazed you missed my point here on evidence. ROFL.

LPC

Brett Meyer said...

I think some words caused Jack to go through and delete all of his comments from this thread.

Now that is the first time I've ever seen anyone react in that manner. I think Jack would have been astonished if I had done that after his flame out on me - for which he apologized in this thread.

Maybe his blog photo, looking down at everyone along the length of his nose and across his uplifted chin was indicative of more than just disdain.

Gregory L. Jackson said...

Brett, I saw the same thing in the photo.

LPC said...

Hi All,

I said to Dr. Kilcrease that this blog is not for those who are easily offended. This blog is also particularly dangerous because it is not moderated. Hence, it allows you to say anything. There is the risk for it will also mean it gives you enough rope to hang yourself.

Now Jack follows logicism in his theological method, even pointing to Gerhard. No offense to Gerhard, I have not read him, but Luther said a lot of things in the use of reason for doing theology, mostly negative. Between Gerhard and Luther, I would rather use Luther's theological method, which is a commitment to what the Scripture says and the heck with what your reason or mind says about it. In other words, Luther makes faith precedent over reason. Luther may have been airing what Letter to the Hebrews said...by faith we understand...etc.

Hence, I was surprised that as a scholar Jack missed my point on prima facie evidence, i.e. the need to ground a teaching on Scripture.

Take a look at the Westminster Confession of Faith...In the Westminster Confession of Faith (1:6) we read:
The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man’s salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men.

Now compare that with what Dr. Kilcrease's method. Do you not see he is actually following that confession without him realizing it?

See any similarities in method? I do.

I do not think I am groundless in saying that UOJers are actually functional Calvinists in as much as they put reason as part of their theological method.

Yet they have the nerve to say anti-UOJers are Calvinists because it believes in JBFA or the prominence of faith in Christianity.


Cruz

Gregory L. Jackson said...

Deduction is the key. UOJers deduce their universalism by a series of logical double-back-somersaults. Calvin placed reason above Scripture while Luther subordinated reason to the Word of God. That is why we have Calvinism turning into Unitarianism in one generation. Krauth or another American noted that all union churches end up Unitarian, the influence of the Lutheran side slowing down the descent. Rationalism is the natural foundation for Enthusiasm. You have it right, LPC.

Stephen said...

Hi LPC,
I realize this is tangential to the original post, but wanted to comment on rationalism in theology. I confess the early reformed confessions (not the WCF), but do you not think that certain elements of even Lutheranism are (rightly) deduced by good and necessary consequence from Scripture? Is the full doctrine of the Trinity, say, that you and I both confess expressly set down in Scripture?
Pax,
Stephen

Gregory L. Jackson said...

Stephen - Genesis 1 is explained as Trinitarian by John 1. The doctrine of the Trinity is a mystery fully and clearly revealed by the Holy Spirit in the Scriptures.

LPC said...

Contrary to Kilcrease's depiction of the Trinity, I contend that the doctrine is established philologically rather than philosophically.

It is a direct teaching of Scripture and not a result of rational deduction.

If one starts from the assumption that the Trinity is based on logical deductions rather than direct axioms from Scripture, then then there is every reason why we have Unitarians who also claim that their doctrine is the result of deduction.

It is the Scripture and not logic that prevent one from being Unitarian.

LPC

Brett Meyer said...

Interesting how many have become comfortable thinking that critical Christian doctrines, that if one rejects them establish that person as not a Christian, are simply thoughts or concepts of God's Word and not clearly and articulately established doctrines by Christ. Such as UOJ, the central article of a UOJists confession, and the doctrine of the Trinity.

LPC said...

Brett,

Kilcrease wants us to join him through conceptual ideas where he says he could prove UOJ, but note well not from Scripture but from deductions.

However, concepts are not necessarily real. We have the concept of a unicorn but they are not real. We can talk about its color, its eyes and what not but that does not prove a thing. Who can authoritatively say that the wing span of a unicorn is 10 feet? It is like Middle Earth, a world of its own but it is not our world.

Even mathematicians are questioning now the concepts they have invented, for example, the idea or concept of a number. Some of them are wondering if this concept exists!

LPC

Stephen said...

LPC,
I am sympathetic to what you are saying about the dangers in rationalist deduction. I fully realize this has been a problem in parts of my tradition. But when I read the WCF quote, it simply said to me that some of our theology is more or less lifted word for word from the Scriptures, while other parts require a degree of analysis and synthesis. Would you not agree with that? It seems to me the question is how to do this in a way that is faithful to Scripture and does not mean we are essentially importing our own opinions.
Thanks again for the discussion,
Stephen

Brett Meyer said...

and does not mean we are essentially importing our own opinions.

Scripture says that we cannot import our own opinions.

2nd Peter 1:20-21, "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

In fact Scripture, God's own Word, is so clear that He says in 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

LPC said...

Stephen,

Reason has its place, but it does not have 1st place, Scripture has already occupied that.

For example, if Jesus says of the bread at Communion, this IS my body. Lutherans take it at that and at face value without debate on what IS means or really means, so IS is IS.

That is why Christianity is a bit peculiar. There is mystery in Christian faith but not absurdity.

LPC

Dr. Jack Kilcrease said...
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Stephen said...

Hi LPC, Brett,
I agree of course that Scripture has first place. I wasn't advocating unbridled speculation, just that the theological enterprise of necessity involves our reason. Sorry but have to fly now - I have a wedding to prepare for! Will return...
Jack,
I will take a look when I can, thanks.
Peace to all,
Stephen

Brett Meyer said...

Stephen, since Scripture has dominion then man's reason is subject to Scripture.

Above you correctly state, It seems to me the question is how to do this in a way that is faithful to Scripture and does not mean we are essentially importing our own opinions.

Take Universal Objective Justification (UOJ) for example. When Theologian X proposed the doctrinal opinion that all men have been declared justified by God before faith the application of Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. And, Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. reject that proposed doctrine as they declare only those who believe in Christ are justified and those who don't are damned. The doctrine of UOJ should have been soundly rejected and condemned publicly. Yet, through the dominance of man's reason (take Dr. Jack Kilcrease' confession on Justification) the new man made doctrine Central Doctrine of UOJ is born of concepts and thoughts extrapulated from Scripture through man's reason which rejects Justification by faith alone, the doctrine of Election, the Holy Spirit's faith, Christ as author and finisher of faith, the unchanging and perfect Triune God etc.

Gregory L. Jackson said...

LPC, Sig Becker has a good book on Luther and reason. He pointed out that Luther subordinated reason to the Scriptures, while Calvin subordinated the Scriptures to reason. That explains the difference between the two, as well as the philosophy behind Enthusiasm.

LPC said...

Pr. Greg,

Yes Becker was good on this, I read him on this a long time ago.

LPC

Gregory L. Jackson said...

LPC, I posted a comment on UOJ on Facebook and the "ura Calvinist" claque sounded forth. That was funny.

LPC said...

Pr. GJ and Others,

Calvinists equate Atonement with Justification. They see justification subjective hence they conclude Atonement must be subjective too.

See the pattern? UOJ does the same! On a the opposite direction!

Because Luther and the BoC emphasized faith so much these Lutherans must think Luther and the BoC were Calvinistic too!

Well the truth catches up with everyone some day (to quote my ex-Pastor but not to endorse him).

Which Lutheran are allergic to faith, I ask? Non but the Waltherians, and as Brett says, they are not even really Lutherans.

LPC