Tuesday, December 02, 2014

Thoughts on the "Western Wall"

The Western Wall is the wall known as the Wailing Wall, where Rabbinic Jews in Israel come to pray. It is specially now called the "Western Wall" to emphasise the "fact" that it is the western wall of the 2nd Temple. Indeed many of Jewish faith use this term to highlight this idea.

I would like to express my opinion as to why I do not believe this wall is part of the 2nd Temple. I do not mean any dis-respect to those who disagree with my opinion, they are entitled to their beliefs just as I am.


Now, there are evidences from historians and archaeologists who do not believe this wall is part of the last Temple. I admit they are a small number. I won't go into those evidences, for example that the wall was actually the wall of Fort Antonia and it used to be a Christian dump site, etc. Josephus an eye-witness of the 70 AD destruction by the Romans, wrote that the Temple was completely destroyed.

As a Christian, I will however offer my reason why I disbelieve that the "Western Wall' is part of the 2nd Temple. The reason is Jesus Christ - Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus said in Mk 13:And Jesus answered and said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

Think of that for a moment,  that statement is very very crucial to your faith - be you a Christian or of another persuasion. Jesus said that no stone will be left upon another -  now if that wall is indeed part of the 2nd Temple and is even the western side of the Temple, then Jesus' prophecy failed and so Jesus is found to be a false prophet. He said no stone will be on top of another and yet there is that wall - a part of the Temple standing. So he is a false prophet and thus a false Messiah. This then mean also that the whole Christian faith crumbles, for we believe in a person who just lied and falsely prophesied to us. Did you get it?

Now, we have Josephus himself a non-believer of Christ who as a historian and eye-witness of the 70 AD destruction of the Temple by the Romans testified indeed that the whole Temple was completely destroyed.

Now assume for a moment if you come from Jewish persuasion and admit that the "Western Wall" might not be a part of the Temple, then Jesus' prophecy came to pass and that means he is worth pursuing. However I doubt and am pessimistic if the Jewish authorities in Israel will change their minds about this - the reason is that asserting the "Western Wall" to be part of the Temple is also asserting that Jesus is a false Messiah and that justifies ignoring the claims of Jesus of Nazareth.

If the real location of the Temple is not in the "Western Wall", then Jews and Muslims can give up the fight for  the control of this area.  Everybody wins.

As a Christian, we have no care of any Temple at all, at least I for one do not care. The reason again is Jesus and what Apostle Paul said - Jesus said in Jn 4:21 that we will not worship in any mountain nor in Jerusalem and in Mt 12:6  he said -- But I say to you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.    Then the Apostle Paul said in 1 Cor 6:19 that our bodies are the Temple of the Holy Spirit.

Won't it be a shame if WWWIII began based on a false belief of a holy site?

20 comments:

Steve Martin said...

Whatever happens because of our stupidity, and sinfulness…the Lord will use for His good and perfect will.

So…not to fret!

Thanks, LPC!

Merry Christmas!

LPC said...

Merry Christmas Steve.

I pray my grand children get to celebrate Christ's birth and that Christmas may not be stolen away from them.

LPC

Pastor emeritus Nathan Bickel said...

LPC -

Excellent posting!

Joel Lillo said...

There is no archaeologist or historian who says that the Western Wall is the wall of the temple. It is, in fact, part of the great retaining wall that Herod built to make a huge platform for the temple. Solomon's temple was actually located either a) right where the Dome of the Rock is or b) immediately to the north of the Dome of the Rock. Our tour guide said that he thought it was originally just to the north of the Dome of the Rock so that visitors would see it through the eastern gate of the Temple Mount.

You betray your ignorance of archaeology and history with this ridiculous post.

LPC said...

Sir, can I test your reading comprehension.
Could you please explain what it is I believe about this Western Wall?

Did you read my post completely? So summarize for me what I teach about this Western Wall, I think you miss my point.

LPC

Joel Lillo said...

All right. You do not believe that the Western Wall is part of the temple.

What I'm calling you on is that you said that many believe that the Western Wall is part of the Temple. I'm telling you that there is NO ONE who says that it is part of the temple. Everyrone says that it is part of the retaining wall.

You remain ignorant about what other people say about the Western Wall.

LPC said...

Sir,

It is evident you missed my point - now you realize correctly that I DO NOT believe the Western Wall is part of the Temple at all, for there is no edifice remaining which is part of the Temple, if Jesus prophesied correctly,

However, it is you who is ignorant and think that there is no one in this world who believe that said Western Wall is part of the Temple. The case in point I give to you are a.) The Zionist Christians believe the Wall is part of the Temple, you obviously have not heard of people who follow John Hagee and other Zionist Christians. b.) The Rabbinic Jews who pray there, why would they pray there if they did not think it is.

Here is for your education - look at those who pray there...
http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=798

LPC

LPC said...

Joel,

Here is what Chabad.org says - "The wall we call today the Western Wall, while not a part of the Holy Temple itself, was part of the Temple Mount retaining wall that Herod the Great built in the 1st century BCE when he ambitiously expanded the Temple Mount and renovated the then-dilapidated Second Temple."

There is a bit of double speak here - if it is not part of the temple and yet it is part of the temple mount retaining wall, what is that? Unless you are saying that the Temple Mount is not part of the Temple, the so be it.

However it is not even part of the Temple Mount according to research, it is Fort Antonia's Western Wall, not the Western Wall of the Temple Mount.

Here is for your further reading...http://askelm.com/temple/t980504.htm

LPC

Joel Lillo said...

The reason that Orthodox Jews pray there is that it is as closs to the temple as they would go. Orthodox Jews, for the most part, will not go onto the Temple Mount because they don't want to risk walking over the place where the Holy of Holies was located. Most believe that is in the Dome of the Rock, others believe it to be to the north of that.

The Anatolia Fortress was located on the Temple Mount. The Temple Mount was HUGE -- built by Herod to shocase his rebuilt temple. The Temple Mount had room for much more than just the Temple.

To get an idea of the vastness of this wonder of ancient architecture, check out the Wikipedia article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Mount

LPC said...

Joel,

You however are still missing my point, which is to say that the Western Wall is not part of the retaining wall for the Temple Mount, which you say everybody believes it to be. Your view that Ft Antonia is located in the Temple Mount comes from tradition which is believed to be wrong as that tradition does not fully take Josephus' account of history seriously.

If you read the link I gave you of Dr. Ernest Martin, you will see that Ft Antonia is to the north of the Temple. The alleged Temple Mount is too far from the source of water - and when you have a sacrificial system you need plenty of water for cleansing, in fact you need running water.

So to cut your reading time, here is video of Messiahnic Jew who happens to be a scholar attesting to the fine work of Dr. Martin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBeZUMTgY_0

Yes I am ignorant in the sense I have not been to Israel myself, but your information is out of date.



LPC

Gregory Jackson said...

Joel lacks people skills. If you want him on your side, abuse women and alcohol.

Joel Lillo said...

I watched the video. It's wishful thinking on his part. It really ignores the topography and architecture of the Temple Mount and is just a bunch of wishful thinking on his part and plays into the false teaching that the temple has to be rebuilt to usher in the Millenium.

As for who has people skills and who does not. Let me ask this one question: Who is the pastor of an actual congregation and who has a congregation that consists of his wife and a video camera?

Gregory Jackson said...

Please refer to my previous comment, since the facts do not matter for Fox Valley WELS.

LPC said...

Joel,

You seem to focus on side issues. Roth's idea of another Temple being built is something I can disagree with.

I may be ignorant of Israel since I have never been there, but unlike you, I do not think I am ignorant of the Bible.

You base your belief about that Wall based on the information given to you by your tour guide who adheres to the traditional idea that the so called Wall is part of the Temple Mount. In so doing you believe against Jesus who said that not one stone will be left standing, you blaspheme Christ. Josephus wrote about the Temple and he recorded that nothing was left in it ( just as Jesus said )

I recommend you trace where that belief about the wall originated - it is a 16th century idea by the Rabbis.

Also, you seem to feel secure that because you are a pastor of a so called "congregation", you are free from false doctrine (which is the real issue). That is a bit naive.

LPC

Joel Lillo said...

OK, then. When was the Western Wall and the rest of the retaining wall built? The evidence is incontrovertible that Herod had it constructed to showcase his rebuilt temple.

Yes, I do believe what Jesus said. When Jesus gave his prophecy that not a stone would be left standing upon another, he was talking about the walls of the temple itself. He wasn't referring to the retaining wall of the temple mount. That was not a part of the temple. However, the temple did stand on the temple mount.

LPC said...

Herod built Ft Antonia and named it after his rock star - Marc Anthony, hence Antonia. That wall is the wall of Ft Antonia's west wall, and the whole of Ft Antonia is adjacent but north of the Temple. Get the picture?

So that Wall which you say is not part of the Temple but is the retaining wall of the Temple Mount is false.
If what you claim is true, then Jesus must have referred to Ft Antonia which would be completely destroyed, that is what your belief is saying. It is not the whole of the Temple, the Mount included but the whole of Ft Antonia that got destroyed - which again your belief blasphemes Christ!

When Jesus prophesied the destruction of the Temple, it included everything, retaining walls included and what nots you may have. So much so that no one could believe that there was ever a Temple there. Andrew Roth' opinion about the possibility of the 3rd Temple, is neither here nor there because as Christians we are not interested in that because Jesus is our temple and we are also that Temple since were are his body the church. However, Roth who used to oppose the findings of Dr. Ernest Martin has turned around also to accept Martin's findings.

The idea that such Wall was part of the Temple Mount originated from Tamudic Rabbis 400-500 years ago.


LPC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78Gs0btX6bo

LPC said...

Joel,

Here is another link which I gave before but you ignored.

http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=798

Pr. Greg is beginning to make sense to me, it seems you are only interested in what has been fed to you, hence, you are not interested in facts. Facts are what you have decided to be.

I am not so sure if you have been taught how to be a critical thinker, it appears to me that you are happy just to swallow what has been fed to you by majority of people in the same way you swallowed UOJ.

Gullibility in a minister is not a virtue.

LPC

Joel Lillo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Alec Satin said...

quote: 'As a Christian, I will however offer my reason why I disbelieve that the "Western Wall' is part of the 2nd Temple. The reason is Jesus Christ - Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus said in Mk 13:2 And Jesus answered and said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down.” '

Dear LPC,
Just found your blog, and so understand that this comment is quite late, however, wanted to tell you that you completely convinced me with this simple argument. I had always heard and believed that the Western Wall was part of the 2nd Temple. If it was the retaining wall, then Jesus was not telling the truth in Mark 13.2. So clear.

We can either look to archeology and current intellectual fashion to help us understand the Scripture, or the other way around. As I get older, I realize that there never really is a middle ground.

Looking forward to reading future posts.
Peace,
Alec

LPC said...

Dear Alec,

Thanks so much for dropping by. I hope you find the past posts to be of help in building your faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Due to my busy schedule, my posting has been limited, there is so much I want to say.

I hope to post one soon.

LPC