tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post8898042447694197325..comments2024-02-27T00:11:57.219+11:00Comments on Extra Nos: Properly Speaking -- I am not a Christian HedonistLPChttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11352627830833515548noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-89136073921207606972007-10-12T10:09:00.000+10:002007-10-12T10:09:00.000+10:00Frank,Thank you.I think those who claim that they ...Frank,<BR/><BR/>Thank you.<BR/><BR/>I think those who claim that they are Christian Hedonists (as defined in Desiring God) are not, really. If they be honest they are not really pursuing God, they just think they are because they have a defective notion of sin that inheres in us and a defective view of the Laws of God.<BR/><BR/>The good news is not that I love God and I pursue him, the good news is that God loves me and pursues me. He has mercy on me even though I deserve to be left alone in my ugliness.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Desiring God Christian Hedonism is trying to motivate the Christian through the Law and not through the Gospel. Hence, you will find statements there that would make you question if you 'REALLY' are a Christian, because according to Piper, a Christian delights in God. We can name times when we don't so what about now those times?<BR/><BR/>LPCLPChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11352627830833515548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-29383651351072565212007-10-12T05:07:00.000+10:002007-10-12T05:07:00.000+10:00So often I have felt that I was the only one who h...So often I have felt that I was the only one who had difficulties with the notion that God commands us to pursue pleasure at all! Thank you for writing! <BR/><BR/>I have been reminded that God gives a very ugly picture of hedonism (hedone) in the New Testament, and Solomon eloquently dismantles the philosophy in Ecclesiastes ( http://thefaithfulword.org/solomonthehedonist.html ).<BR/><BR/>Grace to you.<BR/>FrankAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-71652546652103109732007-09-26T14:27:00.000+10:002007-09-26T14:27:00.000+10:00Bro. David,No rant at all and do not apologize, th...Bro. David,<BR/><BR/>No rant at all and do not apologize, this is a learning exercise so I appreciate all comments - pro or con.<BR/><BR/>Indeed, it will produce sad hearts because it is really the Law again in the back door and the answer to the Law that Dr. Piper gives at least in that book is "do more". So the charge that he promotes a form of neo-nomianism or neo-legalism I think somewhat sticks and I am not happy about this.<BR/><BR/>Yet, Dr. Piper's ideas on Desiring God is so much adored as a great revelation amongst us. I bought into it too. <BR/><BR/>But I am completely left dizzy by the many fans out there.<BR/><BR/>It is kinda bootstrapping our love for God using the Law.<BR/><BR/><BR/>LPCLPChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11352627830833515548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-36505557145059764732007-09-26T14:12:00.000+10:002007-09-26T14:12:00.000+10:00I asked a couple of friends of mine about Christia...I asked a couple of friends of mine about Christian Hedonism. They knew right away it was about Piper's book. They are great Piper fans. <BR/><BR/>I asked them how that idea of pursuing joy and happiness works in with Jesus saying " deny yourself and take up your cross and follow Me,"? Now we have the Holy Spirit producing joy in us but how does our inner brat feel elated at self denial? They all the sudden remember something that had to be done.<BR/><BR/>By the way they are among the sadest people I know. I wonder how they can have any peace after reading that tripe by Piper.<BR/><BR/>Sorry for the rant.<BR/><BR/>Yes blessed is the man against whom the Lord counts not iniquity and in whose spirit there is no deceit.<BR/><BR/>Thanks be to GodDavid Cochranehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08632064391675580145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-81174318398295551842007-09-26T08:03:00.000+10:002007-09-26T08:03:00.000+10:00JK,I did pray for Dr. Piper and his son Abraham t...JK,<BR/><BR/>I did pray for Dr. Piper and his son Abraham the moment I heard it.<BR/><BR/>Rod Rosenblad is the author of the quote.<BR/><BR/>Yes, Law so be preached as a hammer to crush us so that we may be lifted up by the Gospel.<BR/><BR/><BR/>LPCLPChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11352627830833515548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-81812858834979181562007-09-26T00:40:00.000+10:002007-09-26T00:40:00.000+10:00LP,By the way, America is a place in desperate nee...LP,<BR/><BR/>By the way, America is a place in desperate need of exposition of the law. Anyone who makes a habit of personal witness in this pagan culture find out soon enough that Americans think they have it all together. What arrogance my culture has.<BR/><BR/>I weep for many of my friends and acquaintances in my homeland. I have literally cried while praying for their souls and mine.<BR/><BR/>J. K.J. K. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02329537522697826005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-42189581949075932082007-09-26T00:36:00.000+10:002007-09-26T00:36:00.000+10:00LP,We should say a prayer for Piper and his family...LP,<BR/><BR/>We should say a prayer for Piper and his family. Piper’s daughter-in-law lost her baby on 9/22 (http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/829_felicity_margaret_piper/).<BR/><BR/>The Christian life is really more simple than Piper makes it sometimes. He follows Jonathan Edwards more than I would like, and Edwards is the one who wrote “The Freedom of the Will” as an evangelistic tract for American Indians. He could complicate anything.<BR/><BR/>Christianity moves from guilt to grace to gratitude. I think it was a Lutheran who said, “Christianity is not about the move from virtue to vice; it is about the move from virtue to Christ.”<BR/><BR/>Piper is closer than you think. You might look at <BR/><BR/>http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/2004/1554_What_God_Requires_Christ_Provides/<BR/><BR/>Or <BR/><BR/>http://www.desiringgod.org/media/pdf/books_bcrc/bcrc_all.pdf<BR/><BR/><BR/>Divine impassability is difficult for me to wrap my mind around, and it is lurking in back of all “Christian Hedonism.”<BR/><BR/>Also, I want the law to be posted everywhere. I want the law on everyone’s minds. I want the world to hear that God requires perfection. The law is the schoolmaster that drives us to Christ. We do not understand the good news until we understand the bad news. The gospel makes no sense if we do not see our profound need for what it promises.<BR/><BR/>J. K.J. K. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02329537522697826005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-77261051603066159982007-09-25T10:58:00.000+10:002007-09-25T10:58:00.000+10:00Scylding,Centrality of the Cross and Sacraments? S...Scylding,<BR/><BR/>Centrality of the Cross and Sacraments? Something which the NPP, Federal Vision, RefCath folks deny rather foolishly ...Augustinian Successorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04701412663559781833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-53859764418339667312007-09-25T09:49:00.000+10:002007-09-25T09:49:00.000+10:00That is good to know you are your usual self.LPCThat is good to know you are your usual self.<BR/><BR/><BR/>LPCLPChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11352627830833515548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-30273465077033536172007-09-25T02:54:00.000+10:002007-09-25T02:54:00.000+10:00Lito,Interesting post. But I really like you point...Lito,<BR/><BR/>Interesting post. But I really like you point about the centrality of cross and sacraments. <BR/><BR/>And yes, I'm back (tentatively..)Magotty Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06039164409659890130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-77507471690801335302007-09-24T20:14:00.000+10:002007-09-24T20:14:00.000+10:00Dr. Piper in that book says (p.35), “His purposes ...Dr. Piper in that book says (p.35), “His purposes encompass all things, including sin”.<BR/><BR/>Now I know some Reformed folk will have hesitation with that statement by Piper.<BR/><BR/>LPCLPChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11352627830833515548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-68559675882490427662007-09-24T18:20:00.000+10:002007-09-24T18:20:00.000+10:00Dr. John Piper may claim to be Reformed, but give ...Dr. John Piper may claim to be Reformed, but give me DR. FRANZ PIEPER anytime!Augustinian Successorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04701412663559781833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-56582112545441298472007-09-24T13:46:00.000+10:002007-09-24T13:46:00.000+10:00Steve,Ten Commandments posted in public places suc...Steve,<BR/><BR/><I>Ten Commandments posted in public places such as court houses since they believe that the Law will bring righteousness to the USA.</I><BR/><BR/>And when righteousness is there by the Law, they believe God will keep it prosperous perhaps?<BR/><BR/>I have family in USA and I often visit my dad and uncle there, but I have not penetrated very much the American psyche, I suspect they believe that when the Law is obeyed American will stay on top.<BR/><BR/><BR/>LPCLPChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11352627830833515548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-44581889127522735742007-09-24T13:10:00.000+10:002007-09-24T13:10:00.000+10:00Many American "Evangelicals" hold the US Declarati...Many American "Evangelicals" hold the US Declaration of Independence in the same level of esteem and praise as one would the Creeds. In many respects, it is a creed for many. Of course, the reference of God is at best indirect and at worst a pagan view of God. Also, Christ is no where mentioned in this document. <BR/><BR/>Another confusion of Law and Gospel is that many American "Evangelicals" what the Ten Commandments posted in public places such as court houses since they believe that the Law will bring righteousness to the USA.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-10661242393750329512007-09-23T23:02:00.000+10:002007-09-23T23:02:00.000+10:00This is from the US Declaration of Independence......This is from the US Declaration of Independence...<BR/><BR/><I>We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness</I><BR/><BR/>could this be a projection on to the Christian life that we are seing in modern evangelia?<BR/><BR/><BR/>LPCLPChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11352627830833515548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-12445124702017420132007-09-23T17:20:00.000+10:002007-09-23T17:20:00.000+10:00Bro. Steven wrote ..."I agree that the fundamental...Bro. Steven wrote ...<BR/><BR/>"I agree that the fundamental flaw in Piper is that the cross is not central to his theology. Secondly, where are the Sacraments. Another way of putting this is that the Gospel in this book does not predominate to use Walther's phrase."<BR/><BR/>Indeed, Bro. Steven! Walther's Proper Distinction Between Law and Gospel is a must read for the Reformed. *Sigh* ... beleive or not, so many of them are actually ignorant of the proper distinction between law and gospel, not in a bad way but still plain ignorant.Augustinian Successorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04701412663559781833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-21556528256126090592007-09-23T17:15:00.000+10:002007-09-23T17:15:00.000+10:00Bro. David wrote ..."I think he is reading the pre...Bro. David wrote ...<BR/><BR/>"I think he is reading the preamble of the Declaration of Independence instead of the Bible"<BR/><BR/>That's a good one, Bro. David!<BR/><BR/>In Christ,<BR/>JasonAugustinian Successorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04701412663559781833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-56510819461401145262007-09-22T21:31:00.000+10:002007-09-22T21:31:00.000+10:00Bro. David,That linking with the US Declaration of...Bro. David,<BR/><BR/>That linking with the US Declaration of Independence I think is insightful. Come to think of it, the exposition for pursuit of happiness is striking, thanks!<BR/><BR/>On the sacraments, I really why Calvin had to say something different than what the Lutherans say about Baptism and the Supper. Cosequently even today, Calvinists are not even Calvinian in this regard but they have slid backwards to Zwingli.<BR/><BR/>LPCLPChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11352627830833515548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-78198274709656120292007-09-22T21:24:00.000+10:002007-09-22T21:24:00.000+10:00I think he is reading the preamble of the Declarat...I think he is reading the preamble of the Declaration of Independence instead of the Bible. He says the pursuit of joy. The Declaration uses the term pursuit of happiness. Joy is a fruit of the Spirit. It is that which the Holy Spirit produces in us rather than something for which we search. That is how when we really come down to it we can be joyful. <BR/><BR/>Each week we have the joy of receiving the forgiveness of sins in our ears. And if that were not enough we receive Jesus' body and blood in our mouths as another gift as tangible evidence. In addition daily we can reflect on our baptism to drown our inner brat so we can walk forth in joy and confidence that God is indeed our Father. The reformed do not have this for they say they have a sacrament but it really does nothing. Baptism is an entrance to the church and Jesus is Really Absent in the supper in their view.<BR/><BR/>Thanks be to God for His gifts!<BR/><BR/>DavidDavid Cochranehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08632064391675580145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-1070830124790205582007-09-22T19:49:00.000+10:002007-09-22T19:49:00.000+10:00Bro. Jason,Thank you for your prayer. I will keep ...Bro. Jason,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for your prayer. I will keep it.<BR/><BR/>I think we spoke in passing of our common uneasiness with Dr. Piper. My suspicion is that the Rev. Dr. Piper is not also a Christian Hedonist himself, he just thinks he is one. In reality we do not pursue God for even after conversion we still sin in word, thought and deed. We confess this each Sunday.<BR/><BR/>And so we are fired up and sustained by God's forgiveness in Christ. That is the safest and most comforting place to be, isn't it?<BR/><BR/> I know the Rev. Dr. meant well. But being radical or innovative in Christianity almost always never works.<BR/><BR/>Let us abide in God's love, in his Gospel.<BR/><BR/>Thank you for listening (reading).<BR/><BR/>LPCLPChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11352627830833515548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-50530700356034955162007-09-22T11:44:00.000+10:002007-09-22T11:44:00.000+10:00Comfort ye, comfort My people ...Comfort ye, comfo...Comfort ye, comfort My people ...<BR/><BR/>Comfort ye, comfort YE My people <BR/><BR/>TQAugustinian Successorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04701412663559781833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-58541736013097246692007-09-22T11:43:00.000+10:002007-09-22T11:43:00.000+10:00"would continue steadfast Thy Gospel"Would continu..."would continue steadfast Thy Gospel"<BR/><BR/>Would continue steadfast IN Thy Gospel ...<BR/><BR/>TQAugustinian Successorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04701412663559781833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-27062408840344355902007-09-22T11:42:00.000+10:002007-09-22T11:42:00.000+10:00Praise be unto God our Father and the Lord Jesus C...Praise be unto God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ Who by the Spirit has delivered you from heresies into the truth of the light of the GOSPEL of Jesus Christ.<BR/><BR/>"Simul iustus et peccator"<BR/><BR/>Almighty and ever merciful God, our heavenly Father, we thy unworthy servants by grace alone through faith alone do yield unto Thee our hearty and most grateful thanks for bringing forth Dr. Martin Luther to proclaim Thy truth unto the Church when she was turned away from the Cross and unto legalism and mystic experiences; grant, O God that we in our day and age would continue steadfast Thy Gospel and faithfully divide Thy Word to the praise and glory of Thy Name and the everlasting salvation of Thy people; this we beseech Thee through Our Blessed Saviour, Christ. Amen ...<BR/><BR/>Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now and forever shall be. Amen.<BR/><BR/>Comfort ye, comfort My people ...<BR/><BR/>Come unto Me, all ye that are heavy laden, and I *will* give you rest ...<BR/><BR/>This is a true and worthy saying, that Christ Jesus came to this world to save sinners, of whom *I* am chief ...Augustinian Successorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04701412663559781833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-24631108352089366272007-09-22T11:34:00.000+10:002007-09-22T11:34:00.000+10:00Dear Bro. Lito, AMEN, AND AMEN AND AMEN!Ahh ... th...Dear Bro. Lito, <BR/><BR/>AMEN, AND AMEN AND AMEN!<BR/><BR/>Ahh ... the eminent Scripturalness and true catholicity and beauty(!) of Reformation piety and (confessional) Lutheranism!!!<BR/><BR/>In Christ,<BR/>JasonAugustinian Successorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04701412663559781833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-11986394108196701582007-09-22T06:12:00.000+10:002007-09-22T06:12:00.000+10:00Steven,I now have reservations on his teachings af...Steven,<BR/><BR/>I now have reservations on his teachings after the BoC.<BR/><BR/>You almost have to always excuse him each time you read the book. Dr. Piper knew better but many statements in the book are quite unfortunate.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps bringing innovative ideas in the Christian faith is rarely a wise thing?<BR/><BR/>Blessings, <BR/><BR/><BR/>LPCLPChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11352627830833515548noreply@blogger.com