tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post471739419499749693..comments2024-02-27T00:11:57.219+11:00Comments on Extra Nos: Theological Fallacy IILPChttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11352627830833515548noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-5067705496351337742010-07-24T16:24:03.948+10:002010-07-24T16:24:03.948+10:00Really only one justification. What if they fall f...Really only one justification. What if they fall from grace? Can they not be justified again?<br /><br />Look at these passages and tell me how many justifications the Bible speaks of:<br /><br />And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1 Tim 3:16 KJV)<br /><br />God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.(Romans 3:4 KJV)<br /><br />Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (Romans 3:24 KJV)<br /><br />Looks like more than 1 to me.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05805071098838461003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-51176010446802485292010-07-23T10:42:01.505+10:002010-07-23T10:42:01.505+10:00Further, hence in JBFA there is no double justific...Further, hence in JBFA there is no double justification unlike what you believe, because atonement is not the same as justification; thus in JBFA there is only one and only one justification, that at the point of faith which the means of grace creates.<br /><br />I hope you see the difference.<br /><br />LPCLPChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11352627830833515548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-8756300639107006392010-07-23T10:38:50.757+10:002010-07-23T10:38:50.757+10:00Steven,
You said I believe that the Atheist was d...Steven,<br /><br />You said <i>I believe that the Atheist was declared righteous at the resurrection when all of humanity was declared righteous in Christ. If that declaration is not received in faith he still remains condemned. </i><br /><br />Then you said <i>Again (I apologize for the double posting), the Atheist as long as he remains an Atheist is condemned. There are no anonymous Christians, and there are no saints in hell. </i><br /><br />So the Atheist is condemned by God whom God himself declared righteous at the resurrection of Jesus.<br /><br />So God doubles back on what he has done.<br /><br />You do indeed have double justification as criticized by the General Conference people. One at the cross and one at belief.<br /><br />If the latter prevails despite what the first justification did, then you circumvent the nature of faith as Brett Meyer said.<br /><br />Further, the Atheist was never in Christ so how could God declare him righteous in Christ?<br /><br />Rather JBFA says that none of us are in Christ when we are born, only when the means of grace is applied by the HS are we in Christ and thus saved.<br /><br />Romans 3:26. God justifies (present tense) the one who believes (present tense) in Christ.<br /><br />LPCLPChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11352627830833515548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-48343056001243708492010-07-23T10:09:45.665+10:002010-07-23T10:09:45.665+10:00Again (I apologize for the double posting), the At...Again (I apologize for the double posting), the Atheist as long as he remains an Atheist is condemned. There are no anonymous Christians, and there are no saints in hell. <br /><br />"For faith justifies, not for this cause and reason that it is so good a work and so fair a virtue, but because it lays hold of and accepts the merit of Christ in the promise of the holy Gospel; for this must be applied and appropriated to us by faith, if we are to be justified thereby. 14] Therefore the righteousness which is imputed to faith or to the believer out of pure grace is the obedience, suffering, and resurrection of Christ, since He has made satisfaction for us to the Law, and paid for [expiated] our sins." (BOC FC SC 3:13-14)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05805071098838461003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-20526291649850273942010-07-23T10:03:38.541+10:002010-07-23T10:03:38.541+10:00I believe that the Atheist was declared righteous ...I believe that the Atheist was declared righteous at the resurrection when all of humanity was declared righteous in Christ. If that declaration is not received in faith he still remains condemned. <br /><br />Jesus death fulfilled the Law's requirement of death. Those who are in Christ benefit from that. Those who are outside of Christ do not benefit it from it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05805071098838461003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-85922488681932939642010-07-17T14:24:14.377+10:002010-07-17T14:24:14.377+10:00UOJ is inconsistent with Scripture and the Confess...UOJ is inconsistent with Scripture and the Confessions in this point also: those accounted righteous before God as UOJ declares the whole unbelieving world (and Lito's example atheist), do not live in mortal sin. The whole unbelieving world lives in mortal sin.<br /><br />What Is Justifying Faith?<br />48] The adversaries feign that faith is only a knowledge of the history, and therefore teach that it can coexist with mortal sin. Hence they say nothing concerning faith, by which Paul so frequently says that men are justified, <i><b>because those who are accounted righteous before God do not live in mortal sin.</b></i><br /><br />http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justification.phpBrett Meyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15916121605136512091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-18837162315596933542010-07-17T01:02:21.425+10:002010-07-17T01:02:21.425+10:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05805071098838461003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-47541837604890011432010-07-16T17:54:28.005+10:002010-07-16T17:54:28.005+10:00Steven,
You said "Yes" to my question i...Steven,<br /><br />You said "Yes" to my question if the Atheist has been forgiven at the Cross.<br /><br />Therefore you believe in two incidences of justification or forgiveness since justification and forgiveness are the same.<br /><br />To clarify, you believe that the Atheist was forgiven/justified at the Cross, and then should the Atheist believe he gets forgiven/justified at the point of faith.<br /><br />Would that be a clear articulation of your position? I do not want to misrepresent you that is why I am asking the these questions. If not would you clarify what I might be missing.<br /><br />LPCLPChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11352627830833515548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-75774819517182832092010-07-16T17:12:01.213+10:002010-07-16T17:12:01.213+10:00Yes, “[s]in, hell, judgment, and God’s wrath have ...Yes, “[s]in, hell, judgment, and God’s wrath have all been terminated by the Son" for the atheist as well as the believer.<br /><br />I would hasten to add that the declaration of forgiveness is of no benefit to the atheist as long as he doesn't believe. In fact, it because of his unbelief that he will condemned. In the same way that faith justifies the believer.<br /><br />The Confessions teach, "Christ has gained and acquired for an individual - without any merit of his own - forgiveness of sins, righteousness that avails before God, and eternal life" (FC Ep V 5)<br /><br />Notice that the same paragraph begins with, "But the Gospel is properly the kind of teaching that shows what a person...is to believe."Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05805071098838461003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-79762321485064927092010-07-15T19:16:46.471+10:002010-07-15T19:16:46.471+10:00Steven,
I am happy to go further on your other qu...Steven,<br /><br />I am happy to go further on your other question after we have laid aside the issue about the Atheist. I am more than happy to answer your other question; but I think I am entitled to drive a point and hence, I await your answer as to whether or not the atheist got declared righteous at the Cross.<br /><br />LPCLPChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11352627830833515548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-60908236693704686962010-07-15T19:13:45.722+10:002010-07-15T19:13:45.722+10:00Steven,
We would both agree that Christ death pro...Steven,<br /><br /><i>We would both agree that Christ death procured the forgiveness of sins for the atheist, right?</i><br /><br />This is not my question.<br /><br />My question is this...<br /><br /><i>Has the Atheist ever been forgiven of his sins at all? That is to say, was his sins forgiven when Jesus died on the Cross or Raised from the dead?</i><br /><br />What part is not clear in my question. My question is not a trick question. It highlights if you truly believe in UOJ. It is possible you do not believe yourself in UOJ or not clear with it that is why you defend it.<br /><br />My answer to my question is a simple yes or no. As Jesus says let your yes be yes your no be no anything else is from the evil one.<br /><br /><br />LPCLPChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11352627830833515548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-83433596712809748812010-07-15T16:47:18.411+10:002010-07-15T16:47:18.411+10:00I suggest that Luther in speaking of removal was s...<i>I suggest that Luther in speaking of removal was speaking of the atonement.</i><br /><br />Is this not confusing the action and the result?<br /><br />What is else is the sinner's justification than the removal of “Sin, hell, judgment, and God’s wrath"?<br /><br />I see these all has the result of Christ's "one righteous action" (Rom 5:18).<br /><br />These were all procured by Christ and these are now all distributed through the means of grace.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05805071098838461003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-80624882427490915082010-07-15T16:07:49.975+10:002010-07-15T16:07:49.975+10:00We would both agree that Christ death procured the...We would both agree that Christ death procured the forgiveness of sins for the atheist, right?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05805071098838461003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-67564170245921619602010-07-15T08:12:26.273+10:002010-07-15T08:12:26.273+10:00Steven,
You did much better than Kilcrease re: th...Steven,<br /><br />You did much better than Kilcrease re: the Atheist.<br /><br />Has the Atheist ever been forgiven of his sins at all? That is to say, was his sins forgiven when Jesus died on the Cross or Raised from the dead?<br /><br />LPCLPChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11352627830833515548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-47378604015411344522010-07-15T01:56:30.235+10:002010-07-15T01:56:30.235+10:00I will give you a direct answer to the atheist que...I will give you a direct answer to the atheist question. As long as the atheist remains an atheist, he is outside of Christ and therefore not justified. Only in Christ is anyone justified.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05805071098838461003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-71075871245616910252010-07-10T12:21:43.470+10:002010-07-10T12:21:43.470+10:00Brett,
IMHO, the people from WELS are more honest...Brett,<br /><br />IMHO, the people from WELS are more honest that Kilcrease in following through the logic of the UOJ doctrine.<br /><br />According to WELS, even Judas has been justified at the Cross. Which is logical and sound if UOJ were true. Now, I wonder what Kilcrease will say about this.<br /><br />Notice how Kilcrease beat around the bush on my atheist.<br /><br />LPCLPChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11352627830833515548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-2676490285265799822010-07-10T06:50:08.566+10:002010-07-10T06:50:08.566+10:00Another verse which destroys UOJ is Titus 3:7 That...Another verse which destroys UOJ is <b>Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.</b><br /><br />UOJ teaches that the whole world stands in God's grace, having been justified by Christ's atonement, yet the verse above declares that those who are justified by God's grace are heirs of eternal life, saved!<br /><br />They are unable to declare this is Subjective Justification since this justification is by God's grace which UOJ distributes to the entire unbelieving world before they ever believed. This verse speaks of the justification in UOJ's realm of Objective Justification. <br /><br />Of course there are some who reject taking Scripture as it plainly and clearly declares God's will and doctrine but would rather extrapolate some concept or thought which confirms the doctrine formed by their reason.Brett Meyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15916121605136512091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-26824936854532060142010-07-10T03:36:25.802+10:002010-07-10T03:36:25.802+10:00Pr. Greg,
What I also notice is that UOJers quote...Pr. Greg,<br /><br />What I also notice is that UOJers quote people of authority out of context. In that quote I copied above, the first paragraph gave the context of the quote. At that point right away Luther was speaking of faith and when he says "remove" he meant the atonement.<br /><br />Which again boils down to what is implied by the BoC - faith in the atonement is justification, not faith in justification is justification.<br /><br />LPCLPChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11352627830833515548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-35688066565898545892010-07-09T21:49:13.254+10:002010-07-09T21:49:13.254+10:00LPC, you are correct. I notice that the UOJ fanati...LPC, you are correct. I notice that the UOJ fanatics ignore the distinction between the atonement and justification by faith. In Roman Catholicism, everyone is forgiven through the church but their sins are not yet paid for. Luther's emphasis upon the work of Christ addresses that clearly and compellingly. One must apply the Knapp-Walther filters to turn atonement into justification without faith, without the Word, without the Means of Grace.Ichabod the Glory Has Departedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03119183283328283096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-39073730780216030382010-07-09T15:01:57.586+10:002010-07-09T15:01:57.586+10:00Incidentally I had time to present the quote Steve...Incidentally I had time to present the quote Steven gave to Jack which the latter believes is Luther's teaching on UOJ. Here it is<br /><i><br />As though Christ wished to say: “Whoever believes, does not go to hell; whoever does not believe, already has the sentence of death pronounced on him.” Why? Well, because he does not believe in Christ. This is the judgment: that such an ineffably comforting doctrine of God’s grace, procured for the world through Christ, is proclaimed, but that the world still wants to believe the devil rather than God and His beloved Son. And this despite the fact that God assures us: “Sin, hell, judgment, and God’s wrath have all been terminated by the Son.” <br /><br />Luther continues:<br /><br />Now what is still lacking? Why the judgment if all sin has been removed by the Son? The answer is that the judgment is incurred by man’s refusal to accept Christ, the Son of God. Of course, man’s sin, both that inherited from Adam and that committed by man himself, is deserving of death. But this judgment results from man’s unwillingness to hear, to tolerate, and to accept the Savior, who removed sin, bore it on His shoulders, and locked up the portals of hell. (Luther's Works 22:382-383)</i><br /><br />I suggest that Luther in speaking of removal was speaking of the atonement. This is the problem with UOJers, because their mind is so locked up in thinking that Atonement and Justification are co-equivalent, each time they look at the Atonement they think it is Justification.<br /><br />Rather, the teaching of Scripture and the BoC and yes I dare say Luther is this - you reject the Atonement by your unbelief, your sin remains and is not covered thus Jesus says to the Jews if you do not believe I am he, you will die in your sins. The Means of Grace wants to bring the benefit of the atonement to the sinner, which is forgiveness the effect of the atonement, atonement being the cause.<br /><br />Unbelievers are still in their sins and this is exactly what the Means of Grace is trying to accomplish, that is remove man from being in sin and transferred him to being in Christ and thus forgiven. This is I suggest what Luther is saying and not what UOJ wants to spin and weave.<br /><br />Atonement is covering, that is what in Hebrew means. That is what removal in a sense means.<br /><br />LPCLPChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11352627830833515548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-76393394809536170732010-07-09T09:58:57.865+10:002010-07-09T09:58:57.865+10:00Steven,
I am sorry for being careless in calling ...Steven,<br /><br />I am sorry for being careless in calling you Steve. My mistake.<br /><br />When I said <i>My hope is that he sees that in UOJ, forgiveness is distributed without the means of grace which the BoC completely rejects</i><br /><br />What I meant was that UOJ declares or states that the unbeliever such as the atheist is both forgiven and not forgiven at the same time since he has not come to faith yet.<br /><br />JBFA has no such double tongue teaching.<br /><br />As proof I cite LC-MS 1932 Brief Statement Article 17 a<br /><br /><i>Scripture teaches that God has <b>already</b> declared the whole world to be righteous in Christ</i><br /><br />I believe when this statement in 1932 was formulated, they really intended this to mean that way.<br /><br /><br />LPCLPChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11352627830833515548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-73364016624632080992010-07-09T06:17:14.580+10:002010-07-09T06:17:14.580+10:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05805071098838461003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-36018799413783396382010-07-08T08:33:52.235+10:002010-07-08T08:33:52.235+10:00B.M,
Correct.
In Steve's bringing up the to...B.M,<br /><br />Correct. <br /><br />In Steve's bringing up the topic of the Lord's Supper I hope we can show him the sophistic implications of UOJ on this subject.<br /><br />My hope is that he sees that in UOJ, forgiveness is distributed without the means of grace which the BoC completely rejects.<br /><br />LPCLPChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11352627830833515548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-24115269132299270242010-07-08T00:17:13.226+10:002010-07-08T00:17:13.226+10:00Another doctrinal note on the Christian doctrine o...Another doctrinal note on the Christian doctrine of Holy Communion, which I believe should be addressed when clarifying Universal Objective Justification (UOJ). <br /><br />Remember that only those who receive Christ's body and blood with faith, the Holy Spirit's faith worked in them solely through the Means of Grace, are forgiven of their sins. Those who receive Christ's body and blood without faith are damned and in fact are to be kept from taking Holy Communion if at all possible. <br /><br />This flies in the face of UOJ which has distributed Christ's body and blood, His righteousness, for the forgiveness of the unbelieving worlds sins before the Holy Spirit has worked faith in them through Word and Baptism. UOJ would have everyone believe that God's grace has been distributed to the whole world outside the Means of Grace. The Confessional doctrine of Holy Communion rejects this completely.Brett Meyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15916121605136512091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15967712.post-21543926568537724772010-07-07T16:59:34.969+10:002010-07-07T16:59:34.969+10:00I am sorry, I forgot to answer your question...
...I am sorry, I forgot to answer your question... <br /><br /><i>Do you agree that Salvation, life, and the forgiveness of sins are offered in the Lord's Supper? </i><br /><br />Yes I do.<br /><br />But let me ask you, what is given in the Supper is the very body and blood of Jesus - correct?<br /><br />Now if I reject what is offered, are my sins forgiven?<br /> <br /><br /><br />LPCLPChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11352627830833515548noreply@blogger.com