Tuesday, December 18, 2012

Confessional blah blah

Whenever I encounter a Lutheran identifying himself as "confessional", I go catatonic.

What does that mean? It does not mean the person believes in JBFA, it usually means the person believes the opposite; it usually means the person is a Universal Objective Justification adherent, i.e. a Huberite.

Take the case for example of "Lutheran" bloggers in the Internet. You will often read about them going on and on about the ancient traditions of the church discussing finer points of detail and so on. In fact, such people careless about whether or not UOJ is true or false. Often they think this is a minor point of disagreement. So they go to war on the liturgy, they go to war on lots of peripheral issues, they go fighting about what is minor -- always considering that the major issue is done deal already. They consider the doctrine of justification as something that can be set aside, because they think they got this down pat right.

You see when you become a UOJer everything becomes boring, you need something to get excited about.

So what is happening in Lutheranism is something I have seen before in Charismanic Evangelicalism.  When I was in it, the "in" word was "Reformed" so and so. That prefixing of identifying one's self with such a label is a way of getting traction, a way of getting an audience, you might say. It is a way of saying - look man, I am cool.

So when I read folk in Lutherdom saying "I am confessional" etc etc blah blah, often the cynical side of me comes out, I do a lot of LOLing. Because my friend, what some really mean by that is that they are really "synodical", meaning they are a follower of their synod and their synod's extra Biblical pronouncements.

The word "confessional" has been polluted. What matters if you ask me is not what the label one tacks on to oneself, what matters is what really the person believes and teaches and confesses. The label worths nothing.

When you think justification is no longer an issue, my theory is that you will fight for something else.

LPC


57 comments:

Mr. Mcgranor said...

Creeds and catechisms help keep men of a particular caliber in line.

LPC said...

Agreed.

LPC

Brett Meyer said...

Agreed.

People continue to refer to (W)ELS CA/AZ District President Pastor Jon Buchholz as Confessional - even though he just excommunicated Pastor Paul Rydecki for teaching Justification solely by Faith Alone.

To fathom the implications of that makes me speechless...

LPC said...

BM,

There are many things that are wrong in Lutherdom that we can latch on and home in. So people might think they have agreement in the way, say once section of church practice is being conducted etc etc.

Yet if they do not agree on JBFA, the agreement in other things is false pretense.

Luther said you can get many teachings in the Bible correct but if you get Justification wrong, you are still in error no matter where you are right.

Pr. Rydecki had issues with lots of WELS practice as I read his postings. However, he brought the fight to where it should happen, in Justification. This is where it should matter the most and where it should be. To his credit, he was excommunicated wrongly by WELS along the central issue of Christianity - Justification.

God bless bro.

LPC


Brett Meyer said...

God bless you too!

In Christ,
Brett

Joe Krohn said...

Pr. Rydecki does not deny the universal redemption of the human race as you do, Brett. You do not have the same confession, so stop piggybacking.

LPC said...

I think you are into myth making, you and Pr Rydecki probably are not using redemption terminology the same way. Why do you think Pr. Rydecki was excommunicated by your fellow WELS UOJer?

LPC

Brett Meyer said...

Wrong again Joe. Because of UOJ you continue to pervert Scripture. You continue to teach that God has made declarations concerning unbelievers because of what Christ has done - although Christ is only a Mediator between God and man through the Holy Spirit's faith. UOJists are beaten senseless by Galatians 5:4, "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

Rydecki, "The Lutheran Church has a name for the work of Christ that was “finished” on the cross. It is called “Redemption” (cf. Small Catechism, Second Article). It is not called “justification” or the forgiveness of sins (cf. Small Catechism, Third Article)."
Page 6

Rydecki, "But you are correct. I have refused to acknowledge your made-up phrase that “God forgave the sin of the world when Jesus died on the cross,” because, as I have confessed in your presence, the Scriptures do not say this. What they do say is that God forgives sin only through the ministry of the Word as the instrument through which the Holy Spirit alone creates faith in Christ the Reconciler and thereby justifies believers, not because faith is a good work, but because faith lays hold of Christ, the Mediator. “Faith is imputed for righteousness.” This is the “righteousness of faith” spoken of by the Apostle Paul in Romans and taught throughout the Lutheran Confessions."
Page 5

Rydecki quoting the BOC, "The Apology explains it this way in Ap:XXIV:53-55:

The Levitical sacrifices for sins did not merit the forgiveness of sins before God. They were only an image of Christ’s sacrifice, which was to be the one atoning sacrifice, as we said before. To a great extent the Epistle speaks about how the ancient priesthood and the ancient sacrifices were set up not to merit the forgiveness of sins before God or reconciliation, but only to illustrate the future sacrifice of Christ alone. In the Old Testament, saints had to be justified by faith, which receives the promise of the forgiveness of sins granted for Christ’s sake, just as saints are also justified in the New Testament. From the beginning of the world all saints had to believe that Christ would be the promised offering and satisfaction for sins, as Isaiah 53:10 teaches, “when His soul makes an offering for sin.”"
Page 5

Rydecki, "It is certain that Christ has made reconciliation between God and men. He Himself, as the God-Man, is the perfect Mediator between God and Man. “God was in Christ.” He is where the two parties are brought together and reconciled with one another. He is the One who has satisfied the offended party (God the Father) and who, through the ministry of the Word, continues to call out to the world, “Be reconciled to God!” (2 Cor. 5:20).

The present-tense participles in this verse in no way indicate a one-time act of “having forgiven” or “having justified” all people that supposedly took place at the cross. God uses means to reconcile people to Himself. Through the ministry of the Word, He brings people to Christ the Reconciler and does not impute sins to believers in Christ (clearly expressed in Rom. 4:5-8). This verse from 2 Corinthians does not teach that the world has already been justified, and was never used by any of the Lutheran Reformers"
Page 7

All quotes taken from Rydecki's faithful letter to antiChristian (W)ELS DP Pastor Jon Buchholz dated THURSDAY, OCTOBER 25, 2012
Letter to WELS District President Jon Bucholz, Presidium, District Clergy -
From Pastor Paul Rydecki

Joe Krohn said...

Rydecki, "It is certain that Christ has made reconciliation between God and men. He Himself, as the God-"Man, is the perfect Mediator between God and Man. “God was in Christ.” He is where the two parties are brought together and reconciled with one another. He is the One who has satisfied the offended party (God the Father) and who, through the ministry of the Word, continues to call out to the world, “Be reconciled to God!” (2 Cor. 5:20)."

I do not think you understand this quote, Brett. As scripture, the BoC and Rydecki confess here, God is reconciled to Man and Christ is mediator for man. This is the work of redemption. You deny these these objective truths and say that only faith makes them true. God is reconciled to all men in Christ. That does not mean all men are reconciled to God because we know men reject God and what Christ has to offer.

Brett Meyer said...

Joe, thank you for articulating the New Calvanism of UOJ.

ie: God has forgiven every unbeliever their sins in Christ. God has declared every unbeliever righteous in Christ. God has saved the whole unbelieving world in Christ.

All this before the faith of the Holy Spirit worked in man solely through the Means of Grace - Holy Baptism and the Word of God.

As Galatians 5:4 declares, Christ is only apprehended as Mediator between God and man through faith alone. Therefore Christ as Mediator doesn't benefit unbelievers. ie: they are not forgiven of their sins in Christ - they remain dead in sins through unbelief. They are not under God's grace and declared righteous through Christ - they are under the Law and remain under God's wrath and condemnation. They are not saved in Christ - they do not inherit what is solely meant for the children of God.

Christian Book of Concord:
86] But since we receive remission of sins and the Holy Ghost by faith alone, faith alone justifies, because those reconciled are accounted righteous and children of God, not on account of their own purity, but through mercy for Christ's sake, provided only they by faith apprehend this mercy. Accordingly, Scripture testifies that by faith we are accounted righteous, Rom. 3:26. We, therefore, will add testimonies which clearly declare that faith is that very righteousness by which we are accounted righteous before God, namely, not because it is a work that is in itself worthy, but because it receives the promise by which God has promised that for Christ's sake He wishes to be propitious to those believing in Him, or because He knows that Christ of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption, 1 Cor. 1:30.

http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justification.php

Joe Krohn said...

And all this time I thought you thought I was a universalist...

Brett Meyer said...

No, Joe. Your doctrine teaches Universalism. If you were faithful to Scripture regarding the implications of being declared Justified (forgiven of all sins) in Christ then you would be a Universalist. UOJ is an abhorent false gospel that has turned the Lutheran synods into antiChristian cults which anathematize Justification solely By Faith Alone as the Antichrist's church does. Your errors are clear. Inability to see that is simply a condition of the heart.

Joe Krohn said...

Really, Brett? How can a doctrine be both Calvinism and Universalism? Go back and read what you wrote in your last two posts.

There is no comfort in your JBFA alone doctrine. It leaves one twisting in the wind wondering if their faith is strong enough to convince them they are really forgiven; especially when it teaches that Christ has not borne all the sins of the world.

LPC said...

Joe,

Calvinism is not confined to TULIP, it is a rationalistic theological paradigm. Anytime you are into rationalism, you are being a Calvinist. CFW Walther was rationalistic in his doctrine of justification and election.

There is no comfort in your JBFA alone doctrine. It leaves one twisting in the wind wondering if their faith is strong enough to convince them they are really forgiven; especially when it teaches that Christ has not borne all the sins of the world.

I do not know what you are talking about, the Scripture testifies to me that Jesus died for me. I do not look at my faith to find out how strong my belief in it is. I have comfort that in the promise of God for Christ's sake as a baptised in Christ individual, God forgives me for the sake of Christ.

LPC

Joe Krohn said...

"I do not know what you are talking about, the Scripture testifies to me that Jesus died for me. I do not look at my faith to find out how strong my belief in it is. I have comfort that in the promise of God for Christ's sake as a baptised in Christ individual, God forgives me for the sake of Christ."

Did Jesus only die for you, Lito?

Brett Meyer said...

Joe Krohn, "There is no comfort in your JBFA alone doctrine."

You are not comforted by Christ's doctrine Joe because it is not mixed with the Holy Spirit's faith. It is as Christ said - it's foolishness to you.

2 Corinthians 13:5, "Examine youselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"

Joe Krohn said...

Who are you to judge me, Brett?

Brett Meyer said...

I'm a Christian by faith in Christ alone, and Him crucified - and I judge your written confession. You've confessed many things and most recently above you confess that there is no comfort in my confession of Justification by Faith Alone. Lito and I have shown where our confession is consistent and in harmony with Scripture and the Christian Book of Concord - and where your confession violates both. Repeatedly you've confessed that saving faith is not in Christ but faith in the declaration that an unbelievers sins were forgiven in Christ even before they believed. By that confession you teach a false object of faith and have shown that you do not have the faith of the Holy Spirit which is in Christ alone and not UOJ's rational declaration which establishes a righteousness before God which is not of God and is not found in Scripture.

Shame and condemnation on you for teaching that false gospel to men, women and children. Galatians 1.

Joe Krohn said...

True to form, Brett. You do not answer my question of you accusing me of preaching a dichotomy of Calvinism vs. Universalism and then set up yet another strawman of something you say my confession is and then knock it down. You have told me in so many words...and I have your email...that Christ only died for believers...sad.

LPC said...

No.

Joe Krohn said...

I am comforted by your response, Lito.

What do you think of this statement? (Brett as well...)

"That original sin is a true sin, not merely a failing or a defect, but the kind of sin that condemns all men who come from Adam and separates them eternally from God—if Jesus Christ had not stood in for us and taken such sin upon Himself, together with all the sins that flow from it; and made satisfaction for it through His suffering; and in this way entirely abolished it and eradicated it in Himself, as is clearly written about such sin in Psalm 50 and Rom. 5."

Brett Meyer said...

and in this way entirely abolished it and eradicated it in Himself,

Critical phrase - in Himself. Christ died and made perfect satisfaction for the whole world's sins. All sin was laid upon Christ and He paid for them all. Christ's resurrection is proof that God the Father accepted that payment. This is the atonement. All righteousness resides in Christ and there is no righteousness apart from Him. God the Father decreed that solely through the gracious gift of faith in Christ alone, worked through the Means of Grace can an individual receive Christ's righteousness for the forgiveness of sins, the adoption of sons and eternal life. Outside of Christ the unbelieving world remains - continues - under God's wrath and condemnation. The unbelieving world has never been declared forgiven or saved in any sense by God. Therefore the following verses are kept pure and clearly reject and condemn the doctrine of Objective Justification which teaches that God has objectively forgiven the unbelieving world even while they are dead in sins, are alive to sin and are under the Law.

John 8:24, "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

So much for abolishing or eradicting the sin of unbelievers.

John 3:18, "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

No, unbelievers are not forgiven by God but they are condemned by God.

John 3:36, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

Abideth - God's wrath remains upon the unbelieving world. UOJ's claim that God is reconciled to the unbelieving world is condemned.

Galatians 5:4, "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

Same goes for those who create a new way to righteousness and forgiveness of sins before God through the false gospel of UOJ.

Romans 10:3, "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

UOJ is ignorant of God's righteousness which is solely by faith in Christ alone - justification solely by faith alone.

Philippians 3:9, "And be found in him, not having my own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"

Galatians 5:5, "For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith."

Condemned is the entire doctrine of Universal Objective Justification.

LPC said...

Joe,

You keep on falling to the trap laid by your UOJ teachers, JBFA people do not believe in Limited Atonement nor is it a valid conclusion that can be made if one rejects UOJ as I do.

Your quote is from the Shwabach Articles. Luther meant the atonement there and note one more time, atonement is not the same as justification as UOJers and Calvinists believe it to be.

When he used the word abolished he meant there the punishment for sins which he endured for sinners. It does not mean, humans have no more sin, for otherwise why would there be people still going to hell.

LPC

Brett Meyer said...

From Luther's Schwabach Article 5 as translated by faithful Christian Pastor Paul Rydecki who was recently excommunicated by the (W)ELS UOJists for remaining faithful to Christ's chief doctrine of Justification solely by faith alone:

Such faith is our righteousness; God wishes to reckon and regard it as righteous, godly and holy, forgive all sins and have eternal life given as a gift to all who have such faith in His Son, that, for the sake of His Son, they should be received into grace and be children in His kingdom, etc., as St. Paul and John lavishly teach all this in their Gospel, as in Romans chapter 10: With the heart one believes and so becomes righteous, etc. Rom. 4: His faith was reckoned to him as righteousness. John 3: …that all who believe in the Son should not be lost, but have eternal life.
http://www.faithalonejustifies.com/the-schwabach-articles-in-english/

The Satanic gospel of UOJ falsely claims that the whole unblieving world has been received into God's grace so that in some sense God has forgiven them their sins and delcared them righteous in Christ.

Joe Krohn said...

You had to circle the wagons, didn't you, Brett?

You'd like to think there is a disconnect...UOJ according to you absolves all sin individually. And it does in a sense. But then you say 'what about the un-forgivable sin?' What about it I say? Where does the Bible call out 'the unforgivable sin'? It doesn't... just like it doesn't UOJ, or the Trinity...but it is the big picture that counts. Even in your words...if Christ has atoned for all the sins of the world...what about your 'unforgivable sin'? Is it now un-atoned for??? Even you have said before that if a believer who fell away from faith would no longer have the forgiveness he once had. So now God is an indian giver? You have to see this objectively. God provides salvation for all men. Their salvation is finished in Christ. It is a man's fault for rejecting what God has done for him. Jesus Christ is the Savior of all regardless... except a man reject.

Brett Meyer said...

Joe, according to your version of Universal Objective Justification, what is the purpose of the Key to Retain Sins which Christ gave to the Priesthood of all believers? When can or should it be used? And what does it do when used?

Joe Krohn said...

They are used when someone is unrepentant for breaking God's Law; It retains the sin of the unrepentant. BUT, it does not change what you said: "Christ died and made perfect satisfaction for the whole world's sins. All sin was laid upon Christ and He paid for them all. Christ's resurrection is proof that God the Father accepted that payment. This is the atonement."

The atonement accomplished something for all men. It paid man's debt as you have said. His sin. If the debt is paid for, then the debt is cancelled - forgiven.

Brett Meyer said...

You state, "The atonement accomplished something for all men. It paid man's debt as you have said. His sin. If the debt is paid for, then the debt is cancelled - forgiven."

Are you saying God forgave the whole world of sinners?

Or, are you just saying that God canceled every sinners debt?

Brett Meyer said...

I see that my recent question is a bit redundant. The rationalism that UOJ promotes is captured in the last sentence, "If the debt is paid for, then the debt is cancelled - forgiven."

This teaching is not found in Scripture nor in the Christian Book of Concord. UOJists will find explanations of the Atonement - Christ payment for the whole worlds sins - made by faithful Lutheran theologians and rationalize it into the whole worlds debt of sin being canceled (forgiven).

Yet, turning to Scripture we find that Christ is only used as Mediator between God and man's sin through the gracious gift of faith in Christ alone. Galatians 5:4, "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." UOJ wars against this verse by saying that indeed Christ is of effect to the unbelieving world in that by Christ's payment for their sins God the Father has canceled their debt. "...of no effect unto you..." UOJ falls to pieces.

UOJ has God canceling the unbelieving world's debt before and without faith - and for the majority who will never have faith in Christ - all while Scripture teaches that the unbelieving world remains (continues) under God's wrath and condemnation over their sins.

John 3:18, "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

John 3:36, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

Joe, in explaining what the Key to Remove sins means to you it is stated that the unrepentant's sins are retained - but in relation to UOJ's teaching you retain the unrepentant's sin even though God has already canceled his debt of that sin.

Can you explain the contradiction?

Joe Krohn said...

Brett, you said all sin was laid on Christ and Christ paid for them all. I think you need to explain the contradiction that your reasoning brings you to. Are the unbeliever's sin unpaid for since they are remitted to them?

Brett Meyer said...

Joe, unbelievers sins were never remitted unto them. Scripture teaches that the iniquity of the whole world was placed upon Christ and He paid for the whole world's sins.

I like how faithful Lutheran Confessor Hunnius responds to your teaching as it mirrors the Calvanism of Huber:
Thesis 1
Huber professes such a justification, for the sake of which Christ has properly, actually and practically conferred redemption on the entire human race in such a way that sins have been equally remitted to all men, including the Turks10 1, and that all men (including unbelievers) have received remission of sins, and that the whole human race has, in actual fact, been received into the grace and bosom of God.

Thesis 2
Hence he says that all those to whom the Gospel is proclaimed are to be called "elect, justified by God, sanctified, redeemed ," and some of these are said to be "believing and converted."

Thesis 3
This universal justification of the entire human race he considers (even without respect to faith in Christ) to be fully completed 102, sins having been remitted on account of the satisfaction made by the Son of God and swallowed up in His own blood and wounds. These things he says concerning his justification.

Thesis 4
He was pleased to correct this foul and disgusting error in the first legal proceeding before the commissaries. But what he was at that time thought to have vomited out, he swallowed up again in his later writings, which his own reply to the Heidelberg Articles as well as a response to the censure of the Tiibingen theologians shows in the page markings in the upper margin

Thesis 5
This notwithstanding, we most willingly grant that there is a righteousness that avails before God for the entire human race, a righteousness that has been gained and acquired 103 through Christ, so that if the whole world were to believe in Christ, then the whole world would be justified. With respect to this, Paul writes in Romans 5 that "through one man's justification, the gift has spread toward all men for justification of life." Nevertheless, no one is justified nor does anyone obtain remission of sins from this acquired universal righteousness without the imputation of this acquired righteousness of Christ. But the imputation of righteousness does not take place except through faith.

Thesis 6
Hence Paul, when he expressly discusses justification in Romans 3 and 4, does not know of a justification apart from faith, and especially as Galatians 2 plainly says, "Man is not justified except by faith in Jesus Christ."


Thesis Opposed to Huberianism
Hunnius
Translated by Pastor Paul Rydecki
Avialable via Amazon.com

Joe Krohn said...

Blah, blah, you are dancing now, Brett.

"Joe, unbelievers sins were never remitted unto them. Scripture teaches that the iniquity of the whole world was placed upon Christ and He paid for the whole world's sins."

You have quoted time after time how one dies in their sins...have you changed your position?

Brett Meyer said...

You stated above, "If the debt is paid for, then the debt is cancelled - forgiven."
Tuesday, January 15, 2013 at 3:09:00 AM GMT+11:00

I don't follow what you are accusing me of.

I've always confessed that people who die in unbelief, die in their sins. They never had their sins remitted them and their debt to God for their sins was never canceled. They were never washed in the blood of Christ and therefore never put on His righteousness through faith and by which they would have been forgiven by God and saved eternally.

I would urge you to read the Hunnius quotes provided. You and the doctrine of Universal Objective Justification contend that the unbelieving world's sins were remitted them. Scripture, the BOC, Hunnius and I rejected that teaching.

Hunnius:
Thesis 7
Outside of faith in Christ and without it, man remains in condemnation, according to John 3, "Whoever does not believe has been judged already". And again, "Whoever does not believe in the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him". And Mark 16, "Whoever does not believe will be condemned". If such a one has already been judged, if the wrath of God remains upon him, if he will be condemned, then in what beautiful way has he been justified? In what splendid manner have his sins been remitted unto him? Indeed, where sins have truly been remitted, there all wrath and condemnation are gone (Rom. 8). "Blessed are they whose sins have been remitted" (Psalm 32). Now then, are all men blessed? Even unbelievers? Turks? Reprobate Jews?

The Christian doctrine of the Office of the Keys to Retain sins rejects your faithless remittance.

Joe Krohn said...

I apologize...I mispoke...let's reset...

Brett, you said Christ took all the sin and paid the debt. If the debt is paid for, where is it? If Christ took all the sin, where is it?

Brett Meyer said...

Joe, your question shows that you are in the throws of rationalism.

The sins of the whole world, and the debt of that sin, remain on the whole world unless they, by the grace of God solely through the Means of Grace, are born again in Godly contrition and faith in Christ. Only through faith is a man reconciled to God by the atonement of Christ. Only through faith are a man’s sins forgiven, remitted, removed.

The Christian Book of Concord is in perfect harmony with Scripture when it teaches that men receive the remission of sins through faith alone. And if a man’s sins are removed solely by faith in Christ alone – then they were never removed from him prior to faith. So then Christ’s payment for the worlds sins, the iniquity of the world being laid upon Him, does not mean the sins were removed from unbelieving man. Christ is man’s propitiation through faith alone.

Apology of the Augsburg Confession Part 5
That We Obtain Remission of Sins by Faith Alone in Christ
"Paul, on the contrary, teaches that we have access, i.e., reconciliation, through Christ. And to show how this occurs, he adds that we have access by faith. By faith, therefore, for Christ's sake, we receive remission of sins. We cannot set our own love and our own works Over against God's wrath. Secondly. It is certain that sins are forgiven for the sake of Christ, as Propitiator, Rom. 3, 25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation. Moreover, Paul adds: through faith. Therefore this Propitiator thus benefits us, when by faith we apprehend the mercy promised in Him, and set it against the wrath and judgment of God."
http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justification.php

LPC said...

Joe,

Brett's quote of Hunnius contra Huber aptly applies to your position, to me you are dancing around and not slugging the very pertinent quote addressed to your UOJ position.

We have done so many words and I can only surmise that your interaction with us is either a.) you are trying to to demolish the testimony against your UOJ which is effective but you hope against hope that it is not the case or b.) you really want to believe in JBFA but you are enslaved to UOJ and you want to be set free.

I recommend you study the critique of your position in the light of Scripture, instead of blabbering and listening to your own voice. Try not to do your own monologue because at this stage you are not parrying the effective quotes of Brett and it is not doing your soul any good.

Your zealotry is remarkable but it does not move things forward as we find ourselves repeating the words we have said to you before.

LPC

Joe Krohn said...

Brett, where does it say that the sins of the world are still on the world?

Brett Meyer said...

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Joe Krohn said...

I don't deny these verses, Brett. In fact I remember giving you a parable of sorts last spring about this. Christ calls the sinner through the Gospel and says I have paid for your sins (you are innocent through me-OJ)...repent and believe!!! He either receives it in faith or he rejects it. But what about the unbeliever...he says 'but I like my sins and I want to continue to relish in them.' So Jesus says: 'Fine, I paid for them, but if you insist, you pay for them now.' And the sinner now dies in them because he cannot pay for them on his own. Are so far apart??

Joe Krohn said...

Are we(sic) so far apart??

LPC said...

Yes, your object of faith is different from ours.
To add one more verse to what Brett gave, here is something IMHO you need to be consistent with...

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Like your fellow UOJer you miss the proper interpretation of John 1:29.

LPC

Brett Meyer said...

Based on the Scripture and Confessional quotes LPC and I have provided:

Has God declared the unbelieving world to be justified in any sense?

Has God declared the unbelieving world to be righteous in any sense?

Are the unbelieving world's sins still upon them through unbelief?

Is the object of faith sins forgiven or Christ crucified?

If man is justified solely by faith in Christ alone - is faith then a work of man?

You statement, "(you are innocent through me-OJ)..." is incorrect. You are declaring the unbeliever innocent through Christ. Yet the unbeliever isn't in Christ through faith and Christ isn't in the unbeliever so he doesn't have Christ's righteousness which is required in order to be washed clean of all sin, born again to be spiritually minded. You are still rationalizing and by that rationalism you have departed from Christ's pure Word.

Joe Krohn said...

You guys are quibbling over words.

I have never said the unbeliever is in Christ. But that does not change the fact that Christ and His merits (the object of faith) stand and are intended for all men just as the serpent was raised for all of Israel.

Brett Meyer said...

And only those who, by the grace of God, looked upon the serpent staff were healed. All those who didn't look upon the staff died.

UOJ false gospel teaches that all those who refused to look upon the serpent staff were declared healed by God - only they didn't benefit from the healing and died.

Only those who, by the grace of God, obtain Christ as Mediator solely through faith in Christ alone are forgiven by God. All those who do not believe in Christ alone remain under God's wrath and condemnation and dieing in that condition, in their sin, are damned to Hell for eternity.

Are you willing to answer the questions I posed above?

I assure you that at this point, and ever since your return to confessing the false Gospel of UOJ and denouncing one Justification solely by Faith in Christ alone, it has never been an issue of mere words. What you confess with those words, what UOJ teaches with it's words, is at eternal odds with Christ, God the Father, the Holy Spirit and the whole Christian Church.

I also reject "intrepid" Friar Spencer's assertion that it is a matter of misunderstanding words. The Kokomo families and faithful Pastor Paul Rydecki's excommunication are clear evidence of that. Buchholz' faithful defense of the false doctrine of UOJ by anathematizing one Justification solely By Faith in Christ Alone - in perfect harmony with the Antichrist - is evidence enough.

Joe Krohn said...

Has God declared the unbelieving world to be justified in any sense?

In some sense yes. 1 Tim. 3:16 and Is. 53.

Has God declared the unbelieving world to be righteous in any sense?

In some sense, yes. See above. They are under God's grace til death and then they will be judged accordingly.

Are the unbelieving world's sins still upon them through unbelief?

Yes and no.

Is the object of faith sins forgiven or Christ crucified?

Both. You can't have one without the other.

If man is justified solely by faith in Christ alone - is faith then a work of man? No.

Brett Meyer said...

Thank you for answering the questions.

The majority of UOJ proponents would object to your answer on the last question. The UOJists one LutherQuesy and Steadfast-ish believe that if a man is justified solely by faith in Christ alone then it makes faith a synergistic work and is condemned.

Otherwise you are remaining faithful to the doctrine of UOJ as it is generally taught.

There is a gulf that separates your teaching and that of Scripture and the Christian Book of Concord.

Joe Krohn said...

No, Brett. You are sadly in much error. The atonement does something. It opens heaven for all men since the atonement pays for all men's sins. In that sense, all men are guiltless since Christ took their guilt and iniquity (Is. 53) on himself...in eternity. But that guiltlessness does a man no good outside of faith. It is God's provenance that saves a man. It is man's fault if he is condemned.

LPC said...

Joe,

In 1 Tim 3:16, it is Christ who is vindicated. That is what it means, so sorry there is no sense that Scripture teaches what you contend, that the whole unbelieving world is righteous.

You must be doing some kind of somersaulting on that verse to prove your theory that in some sense the whole world are already righteous before faith and before the means of grace.


The problem with UOJ is that atonement is equated with Justification which the Scripture does not speak about.

There is no sense that all men are guiltless because all men are not in Christ.

If a man is in some sense no longer guilty then what is the sense for the need of the Means of Grace (MoG)?

The forgiveness of sins is found only in Christ, it is located in his person and work. This is the reason why the HS through the means of grace puts the sinner into Christ so that he may be shielded, covered from the wages of sin. Christ is the passover lamb, though he was slain, yet those whose house has not that blood are not protected from the death angel. That lesson in Exodus typifies what happens in the Gospel.

The HS puts the sinner through the MoG under the blood of Christ thereby the Law demands is taken cared of.

Your position is not a paradox, it is a contradiction and an absurdity.

So what you have is a fallacy - man is guiltless and guilty at the same time. This is like saying you accept A is black and A is not black at the same time.

And so the axiom - from a contradiction you can prove anything - runs true to your UOJ position.

This is sophistry, well done; you are getting better at it.


LPC

Joe Krohn said...

No, Lito. You are making the BoC and the Bible stiff. You only choose to look at this subjectively.

Vindicated is a synonym for justified as some translations show. Christ did not ever need to be justified. So then why was He justified?

If anything justification is objective only (outside of us and in Christ) which is received in faith.

There was a day when Brett Meyer confessed this.

LPC said...

There is your rationalism Joe.

So then why was He justified?

Because he is innocent of any sin, in fact that is what justification is, to declare the person innocent. This is so true for Christ as a fact.

For the sinner who believes, it is reckoning as righteous. For Jesus there is no reckoning necessary because as a fact he never sinned yet condemned to die for ours.

Scripture says that faith in Christ is accounted as righteousness, as if the person never sinned.

Think again Joe, your UOJ masters knew well the Bible, they would have offered your verse if they saw a way to argue the theory that the whole world has been justified already. They do not offer your verse.

Instead they offer what they thought to be the most convincing proof -- Romans 4:25, which is a miss handling of Scripture.


LPC

Joe Krohn said...

Lito, Jesus Christ is innocent because He bore all sin; took the fall as the guilty party and was raised as payment for all men's sin therefore standing as all men's justification. That is what 1 Tim. 3:16 means. It does not mean that all men are justified individually, but by faith in Him as their propitiation! Christ was absolved so that men could be absolved through faith! Is. 53 foretold it and it was true for all time.

I have seen in cyberspace where you were once mentored by Pr. Webber and agreed; in fact it seems to me he helped you out of your Calvinism. What happened???

LPC said...

Joe,

it does not mean that all men are justified individually, but by faith in Him as their propitiation!

Here is where your inconsistency comes in. If a fellow reading this conversation reads your comments, you just contradicted yourself. Because you used 1 Tim 2;13.

Proof:

You said
Has God declared the unbelieving world to be justified in any sense?

In some sense yes. 1 Tim. 3:16 and Is. 53.


You just said yes, that the unbelieving world was in some sense justified and you offered 1 Tim 3:16 for that.

Now you say It does not mean that all men are justified individually

The world can not be justified in some sense if the individuals in the world are not justified. English is not my native language Joe, you seem to not follow the rules of English.

I have seen in cyberspace where you were once mentored by Pr. Webber and agreed; in fact it seems to me he helped you out of your Calvinism. What happened???

Mentored? That would be a very strong word. I asked him some questions by email when I was struggling with with the results of Calvinism, since I was new to Lutheranism and did not have any resource to communicate with. He sent me back to my then pastor to help in the depression I was experiencing.

And do you know what got me out of the anxiety depression Joe? Only one thought - Jesus died for me. Yes Joe, it was not the thought that I have already been justified that got me out of the crisis. It was the atonement. It was not Justification that got me out, it was the Atonement, that Jesus died and paid for my sins. No other human should take this glory reserved only for Christ and may anyone be accursed who would rob Christ the honor of being the saviour of his people.

I have quite a number of pastors whom I could say mentored me, some of my pastoral relationship lasted for more than 10 years and not just a matter of a couple of emails! Yet those pastors who mentored me ( and I would not consider Pr. Webber as one of them) in the past I have disagreed when in the end what they taught me were not from Scripture. One of them I respect too much began teaching that praying to the Father in Jesus name was a sin.

Pastors are servants of God, but the real shepherd of the soul is Christ. Goodness, if I am indebted to a pastor the rest of my life, what is that but another form of Romanism?!!!

I have disagreed with a lot of people I respect. The two are not one and the same - in the same way that the Atonement and Justification are not the same.

I make no denial that my first few years of Lutheranism I spoke in a UOJ manner but after study precipitated by some critique I saw from Ichabod, I studied the subject myself using Scripture and the BoC - I even read first off the Marquart article myself but I concluded that his piece on Kokomo was lame.

You see Joe, since 2008 I have not swayed from my anti-UOJ. The reason I believe that is the case is because the evidence I have was from Scripture and not merely from the writings of any man.

LPC

LPC said...

To summarise...

have seen in cyberspace where you were once mentored by Pr. Webber and agreed; in fact it seems to me he helped you out of your Calvinism. What happened???

To answer this question bluntly, Pastor Webber's position on justification is not Scriptural based on my own investigation. That is what happened and so since it is IMHO off, I have and must differ from him. Perhaps he has other position that is consonant with Scripture in which case on that subject I must agree.

For example his view on the Lord's Supper is ok and I learned from that but his view on UOJ as a concept is IMHO not Scriptural so there is no mystery there why one should disagree though he has helped in other matters in the past.

No mystery there.

LPC

Joe Krohn said...

"And do you know what got me out of the anxiety depression Joe? Only one thought - Jesus died for me. Yes Joe, it was not the thought that I have already been justified that got me out of the crisis. It was the atonement. It was not Justification that got me out, it was the Atonement, that Jesus died and paid for my sins. No other human should take this glory reserved only for Christ and may anyone be accursed who would rob Christ the honor of being the saviour of his people."

What got you out of your depression, Lito was the realization that not only did Jesus die for you and pay for your sins, put that he did this for all men. He is the Savior of the world.

Brett Meyer said...

Joe, clearly you do not, or will not, see that you are rationalizing your doctrine. You do not, or will not, see that the Scripture and Confessional quotes refute your doctrine.

You do not hear Christ's voice in the Scripture or Confessional explanations of that Scripture that we have provided and which clearly refute your false teaching on the most critical of all doctrine - Justification.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Joe Krohn said...

Brett, the Bible is clear on one man passing judgement on another...Kyrie eleison...

Brett Meyer said...

No, Joe. The reason that doesn't apply is that I'm not judging your heart but I am judging your doctrine which you are teaching publicly. This particular doctrine is the Chief Article of the Christian faith, Justification, by which faithfully confessed a man is either in Christ and forgiven and saved or by perverting the doctrine is outside of Christ and under God's wrath and condemnation. I have judged your false teaching as Christ has given the Church to do and have shown where it is contrary to Christ, the Holy Spirit, God the Father and the Christian Church. As such I've applied the Law and have shown you that continueing in such a false gospel you stand condemned by God.

The Lutheran Synods do not want anyone to apply the Law so clearly since they operate in opposition to Christ and the Christian Church.

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Galatians 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

I'm actually putting the best construction on your confession. Most people would excuse your false teaching by considering you to be stupid or inept and never taking the time to correct you. I believe you are neither but are sincere and fully able to articulate your confession. Therefore I have shown where you have fallen into the false religion of rationalism and are confessing, teaching and hardening others in it through the false gospel of UOJ.